Carbon Fiber. How to tell whats Real or Not - Yamaha R6 Forum: YZF-R6 Forums
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-03-2012, 11:37 AM Thread Starter
Lifetime Premium
 
LiveFastDieLast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Toronto and London UK
Posts: 126
Bike: 09 R6
Carbon Fiber. How to tell whats Real or Not

The other day here on the Forum there were some Carbon parts for sale.
One of the parts listed was not 100% pure carbon. I did not want to Hijack the sellers post and ruin a potential sale. So I figured I would make a write up with some tell tail signs of what is real or not. To help other members here on future purchases.

There is so much to list and I have been thinking about how to word it so I am making sense and people reading this post will understand.. He it goes.

Carbon Fiber it self is a man made product. Its consists of bundles of carbon woven with other bundles of carbon. Your Average weave will have 200 fibers per bundle, with a 2 by 2 weave. So under two bundles over two bundles..


There is only One way to produce a true carbon part. This is with the use of an Autoclave. Its a large pill shaped machine that creates Air Pressure as well as heat. This compresses the layers of Carbon and cures the resin. I could get more technical on this but that's the jist of it.


Types of Carbon used...
There are many types of Carbon and Resin combos for making a carbon part. The two most common are Dry Cloth, and Pre-Impregnated.
This is the first tell on what was used to produce the part.



Dry cloth is just as it sounds. Its dry carbon that is placed over the mold were the resin will be introduced into the cloth via a brush or metal roller and the carbon will be placed into position into the mold. This style will produce a weave distorted part. The dry cloth has nothing holding the carbon bundles in place. So as the resin and added into the raw carbon the brush or roller will push and pull the weave around. Think of it this way. If you took a knitted sweater and tried to pull it tight around a shape you would stretch out the sweater oddly. Same with the Carbon cloth.

Secondly Is Pre-Impregnated Carbon
This is the same Carbon as the dry cloth but with the resin already there. The manufacture of the raw carbon adds the resin in during the manufacturing process. This type of carbon can produce part with zero weave distortion. That is were the skill of the laminator comes in to not distort the carbon when placing the fist layer in the mold.

So with that here are some ways to tell if the part you are looking as is true carbon or just appears to look carbon. Just because the top visual layer is distorted does not mean the part is fake but it is a good sign that is not 100%. Ducati for example almost all there stock carbon parts have weave distortion but that is because of there process to produce parts. There parts are 100% carbon.

Generally on after market parts when the top layer of carbon is distorted its because the rest of the part is choppmat fiberglass. The part would have been produced out of fiberglass and the visual layer carbon layer ( more then likely .010 thick ) is then added over top to cover the the fiberglass and have the part appear full carbon. The strength of full carbon to fiberglass cannot even be compared.
Choppmat is what you will find in boat hauls. Its the strands of fiberglass with resin that is blown or placed by hand going in all directions. When this is used the non visual surface of the part will be painted black ( or whatever colour) and be extremely un-smooth. Carbon will still produce a relative smooth back side to the part. There may be a slight wrinkle or over lap of material. Also why paint it? Your selling a carbon part for the look and or lightness. Why add weight by painting it?

Carbon Fiber (Tank Trim, Chain Guard, Tire Hugger) $230

This is the thread that got me thinking about Carbon information. Look at the back side of the rear tire huger. The Vents are not even cut out like stock. This would have also exposed that is was made of fiber glass. My photos below show visual and non visual surfaces of the carbon. None look like that.

Coloured carbon is definitely not 100% Any type of colour strand other then black is either fiber glass or Kevlar. As below the yellow and black is Carbon and Kevlar.

Lastly wraps. "Carbon" wraps have become very good and undetectable to an untrained eye. This will mostly apply to online purchase. All Carbon must be covered with a clear coat. This will give the part the UV protection. The resin in the part will start to get a yellow ish tint with in 2-3months if there is no clear coat added. Regular indoor house lights create enough light out put to yellow the resin. So if you see a carbon part that is unpainted chances are its a wrap.

Below are a few photos I took today of some random carbon stuff from my tool box and work.
There is Raw Carbon, Raw Carbon Kevlar, Some Carbon parts I made, A both visual and non visual surface, as well as some parts for a current job, Clear coated and non visual surface. You can easily see the difference of the surfaces from those photos to the one posted of the rear huger for sale. As well a small mold with Fiberglass on the backside.

There are so many tangents I can go off too about Carbon, but I think I would just be rambling. Please ask any questions and I will try to answer best I can. Hopefully this will give you guys/girls some knowledge on the material to help insure you are getting what you actually think you are getting when purchasing that carbon bling.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMAG0163.jpg (533.4 KB, 57 views)
File Type: jpg IMAG0164.jpg (551.6 KB, 60 views)
File Type: jpg IMAG0167.jpg (415.0 KB, 53 views)
File Type: jpg IMAG0165.jpg (263.7 KB, 53 views)
File Type: jpg IMAG0166.jpg (359.9 KB, 53 views)
File Type: jpg IMAG0173.jpg (523.3 KB, 52 views)
File Type: jpg IMAG0168.jpg (314.8 KB, 51 views)
File Type: jpg IMAG0172.jpg (293.7 KB, 47 views)
File Type: jpg IMAG0171.jpg (496.0 KB, 45 views)


Keep your Knees in the Breeze
"Only two types of Whiskey I don't like, Dick and Throttle" - A Wise Man.
LiveFastDieLast is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-03-2012, 11:38 AM
iRun
 
pickpocket293's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Chicago, for the next 10 seconds.
Posts: 33,165
Bike: Sold off in pieces.
Re: Carbon Fiber. How to tell whats Real or Not

Jesus. Cliffs?


Things I am sick of explaining on this forum:
  • What's the difference between an R6 and an R6s? HERE
  • Should I start on a 600 or a 250? HERE
  • How do I ask the forum a question and actually get an answer? HERE
  • Where do I find a map for my Bazzaz? HERE
  • Should I get a 520 kit for MOA POWAH? HERE
  • How does rotating mass work? HERE
pickpocket293 is offline  
post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-03-2012, 12:00 PM
Living The Dream
 
R6_350z's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Mother Effing Los Angeles!!
Posts: 3,807
Bike: 2009 Yamaha R6
Re: Carbon Fiber. How to tell whats Real or Not

this thread didnt need a novel just pictures

real - fake

lol

and he meant cliff as in cliff notes...............

2009 Orange R6 Sold

MODS
- Shogun FS- Zero Gravity DB - Custom FE - Hot Bodies Flush Mounts - MotoDynamic Integrated Tail Light - Supersprox -1+2 - Taylormade Full Exhaust - PCV - OURY Grips - Corbin Seat - Ebay Shorty Levers

-Future Mods-
-Translogic MicroDash-Projectors-ASV Levers-GYTR Solo Seat- Bright Gold Carrozzeria Rims........

2011 ice silver metallic Audi A4
2004 350z(sold )



sig thanks to GIJoe007
R6_350z is offline  
post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-03-2012, 12:06 PM Thread Starter
Lifetime Premium
 
LiveFastDieLast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Toronto and London UK
Posts: 126
Bike: 09 R6
Re: Carbon Fiber. How to tell whats Real or Not

Quote:
Originally Posted by R6_350z View Post
this thread didnt need a novel just pictures

real - fake

lol

and he meant cliff as in cliff notes...............
Just pictures would not work. As fake carbon still looks like real carbon.
I was giving information about Carbon to help give knowledge so people here on this forum don't get ripped off... not just a show and tell on fake or not fake carbon


Keep your Knees in the Breeze
"Only two types of Whiskey I don't like, Dick and Throttle" - A Wise Man.

Last edited by LiveFastDieLast; 12-03-2012 at 12:11 PM.
LiveFastDieLast is offline  
post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-03-2012, 12:18 PM
Parts Pimp
 
ChiefSmokeDawg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: JerZ
Posts: 26,278
Bike: 2002 R6, 2008 R6
Re: Carbon Fiber. How to tell whats Real or Not

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiveFastDieLast View Post
Just pictures would not work. As fake carbon still looks like real carbon.
I was giving information about Carbon to help give knowledge so people here on this forum don't get ripped off... not just a show and tell on fake or not fake carbon


Most people don't realize the difference between structural carbon and decorative carbon whether it's backed by fiberglass or all CF twill used.

Autoclaving is the only way to make structural carbon fiber like some of the parts I sell (Leo vince case covers, and some other items I'm bringing in soon as well).

CONTACT/EMAIL ME HERE

R6 ECU FLASH Click Here



My 02 Thread My 08 Thread
RIP BALLISTIK: We miss you Ricky!!!
Ask about:-STAHLBUS- -WOODCRAFT- -MOTUL- -FERODO- -BRAKE TECH- -BMC- -Battery Tender-LEO VINCE- -NGK- -EBC- -Canyon Dancer-
ChiefSmokeDawg is offline  
post #6 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-03-2012, 12:48 PM
Giggity
 
robthezombie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Ohio
Posts: 53
Bike: 07 r6 raven
Glad you took the time to do this. I think pics would have been pointless. His whole reason for this was to tell us how to tell the difference because to the untrained eye its very hard. Take the Dan motor exhaust. Its a cf pipe or so they say. But the main issue with that pipe is discoloration. And why? Obviously its so cheap that its not the real deal. I don't want to spend my money on something fake that doesn't have the strenght and quality I'm buying cf for. This is a good guide for buying off eBay. Thanks man

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Motorcycle.com Free App
robthezombie is offline  
post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-03-2012, 12:51 PM
Parts Pimp
 
ChiefSmokeDawg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: JerZ
Posts: 26,278
Bike: 2002 R6, 2008 R6
Re: Carbon Fiber. How to tell whats Real or Not

Quote:
Originally Posted by robthezombie View Post
Glad you took the time to do this. I think pics would have been pointless. His whole reason for this was to tell us how to tell the difference because to the untrained eye its very hard. Take the Dan motor exhaust. Its a cf pipe or so they say. But the main issue with that pipe is discoloration. And why? Obviously its so cheap that its not the real deal. I don't want to spend my money on something fake that doesn't have the strenght and quality I'm buying cf for. This is a good guide for buying off eBay. Thanks man

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Motorcycle.com Free App
If anything, it's probably not a UV proof resin that makes it yellow. It doesn't mean they don't use actual carbon twill in the can and construction.

The only way to have STRUCTURAL carbon fiber is to autoclave it like the first part of the post states. But vacuum and resin molded CF only using carbon twill is STILL REAL carbon fiber.

CONTACT/EMAIL ME HERE

R6 ECU FLASH Click Here



My 02 Thread My 08 Thread
RIP BALLISTIK: We miss you Ricky!!!
Ask about:-STAHLBUS- -WOODCRAFT- -MOTUL- -FERODO- -BRAKE TECH- -BMC- -Battery Tender-LEO VINCE- -NGK- -EBC- -Canyon Dancer-
ChiefSmokeDawg is offline  
post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-03-2012, 12:54 PM
Weeeeeeeeeeeee
 
Xtina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,660
Bike: '13 Ninja 300, '07 Gix600
Re: Carbon Fiber. How to tell whats Real or Not

My Danmoto on my track Gixxer is holding up well. It's finish is actually nicer then the Akra cf slip on in the r6

2009 FZ6R - grocery getter
2004 CBR600RR- track
2013 Ninja 300- sold
2009 R6 -sold

SOAR #818
Xtina is offline  
post #9 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-03-2012, 12:57 PM
Buck Fitty
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 29
Bike: 2007 R6 Raven Edition
Re: Carbon Fiber. How to tell whats Real or Not

That's the risk you run with buying from a person rather from a company/online though, you may get a better deal but won't be 100%, that's why i'll only buy online (motorcycle superstore), may be a little more on the expensive side, but i'd rather have quality and a piece of mind!
GBABY073 is offline  
post #10 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-03-2012, 01:28 PM Thread Starter
Lifetime Premium
 
LiveFastDieLast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Toronto and London UK
Posts: 126
Bike: 09 R6
Re: Carbon Fiber. How to tell whats Real or Not

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiefSmokeDawg View Post
If anything, it's probably not a UV proof resin that makes it yellow. It doesn't mean they don't use actual carbon twill in the can and construction.

The only way to have STRUCTURAL carbon fiber is to autoclave it like the first part of the post states. But vacuum and resin molded CF only using carbon twill is STILL REAL carbon fiber.
Exactly, You just wont have the same consolidation and the part wont be a strong.
You have some serious knowledge. Glad to see it.


Keep your Knees in the Breeze
"Only two types of Whiskey I don't like, Dick and Throttle" - A Wise Man.
LiveFastDieLast is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Yamaha R6 Forum: YZF-R6 Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
FS: Real Carbon Fiber Tank Side Fairings 06 07 2006 2007 asim Bike Parts For Sale 4 06-01-2012 11:18 AM
99-2002 real carbon fiber upper fairing air duct cover for left side danielsw36 Bike Parts For Sale 1 09-03-2010 08:37 AM
Real Carbon Fiber Tank pads? Hwoody77 Appearance and Exterior Mods 1 07-12-2007 11:06 AM
Whats the real year? Bike 8/01, Insur. 02 gixer311 General Discussions 13 02-09-2005 12:12 PM
"Real" Carbon Fiber Windshield Mikeeh76 Appearance and Exterior Mods 6 05-03-2004 02:14 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome