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Intermediate pace track tire

8K views 61 replies 24 participants last post by  motorsportsaddict 
#1 · (Edited)
Hey guys,

On my last TD, I had two(!) crashes in the same day.
In both cases I tucked the front tire, and have determined it was due to tires.

BT-003RS, with 3 years of use, and 2 years of warmers. The track I usually ride is slow and thus I still have plenty of tread left. I guess the tires are just 'hard' after so much time.

=====

Anyways, I run a slow intermediate pace when taking my time, and a fast intermediate when pushing. Suggestions for tires to be used with warmers?

I usually get 3-5 trackdays in per year, so hopefully these will last me at least two years.

Cheers,
Kelvyn




EDIT:
Due to extenuating circumstances, I didn't get a chance to ride at all last summer.

So I'm still looking for a new set of tires.
Two years later, is there any better tires I should be buying?

I'm probably back to fast beginner/slow intermediate pace after not riding for so long. I'll be using my warmers.
 
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#2 ·
Supercorsa SP. Warmers optional. You'll get around in the wet if need be. Otherwise TD slicks if it doesn't rain ever where you are.

I've turned lap times on power pures that are good enough to run in the race and expert group.

And FWIW, nobody who's fast has anything nice to say about the tires you run. The sidewalls blow. Front end feel is meteocre, etc.
 
#15 ·
Supercorsa SP. Warmers optional. You'll get around in the wet if need be. Otherwise TD slicks if it doesn't rain ever where you are.

I've turned lap times on power pures that are good enough to run in the race and expert group.

And FWIW, nobody who's fast has anything nice to say about the tires you run. The sidewalls blow. Front end feel is meteocre, etc.
how has no one said the pirelli superbike pro slick? can be used with or without warmers, and last a STUPID amount of time. jtolles was running advanced pace on them and they never slipped at all - and i was on my ntecs. granted, mine never slipped either, but he was still slightly faster, that bastard.
:confused:

Haven't run slicks yet, only DOTs, but wouldn't keeping heat in the tire be an issue if you are used to riding on a street tire? I have no idea of OPs speed, but I would think jumping from a street tire to a slick right away would leave a lot of room from the temp generated from the current speed, to the speed that needs to be carried to generate enough heat for a slick to not cold tear and wear poorly.
DOT's are way stickier than the track day slicks. They make their traction and grip by offering a large contact patch. The compound is like a medium or maybe even bordering hard if that was an actual compound.

They squish and bend and flex MUCH more than a street tire. When you brake on them you feel em flatten out and bounce up. That's how they get hot. But the problem with them and no warmers is that they suck donkey dick until they are warm. If you're at a fast pace on them, your hot pressure is WAY too low when the tire is cold to allow the bike to feel decent or turn properly. When I say this I mean it's too low on air, and the front tire and bars turn WITH the tire into the turn and require constant input, etc.

And you'll cold tear em without warmers too. They say you don't NEED warmers for em cause they don't heat cycle horribly like other tires do, not cause the carcass is stiff enough to support the weight without the pressure.

I rode those tires all the way through intermediate, advanced and into the race group before they had little left to offer other than epically long ******* all over the track.
 
#3 ·
I raced last season on the SS spec tire, the Dunlop 211GPA. I was pretty damned impressed. They wear REALLY well, especially the fronts. I only used 3 fronts all season.

http://dunlopracing.com
 
#7 ·
I raced last season on the SS spec tire, the Dunlop 211GPA. I was pretty damned impressed. They wear REALLY well, especially the fronts. I only used 3 fronts all season.

http://dunlopracing.com
That's far from an intermediate tire. It requires warmers. There's no option on that. Ask how I know...

And they heat cycle terribly. The best laps you'll ever get on the 211 AMA spec tires is your 2-4th laps. After that, it's up in the air. I've got a heap of em with 25 laps on em with the AMA tech stickers still on em. They are heavy and pretty god damn square shaped too.

Compare that to the UK front which looks like a god damn power cup V and just scratch your head..

They are the last tire on my list and are certainly not an intermediate track day tire. Not even considering the additional work on the suspension from the hard ass carcass you can use as a fcuking chair to sit on without it even being on a rim. Slicks are the fastest for a reason, not cause they barely flex and offer little contact patch, etc.. The GPA's, ntecs, D211's all are not the best race tire IMO and that's pretty much what every other AMA rider had to say when I asked!
 
#4 ·
Hey guys,

On my last TD, I had two(!) crashes in the same day.
In both cases I tucked the front tire, and have determined it was due to tires.

BT-003RS, with 3 years of use, and 2 years of warmers. The track I usually ride is slow and thus I still have plenty of tread left. I guess the tires are just 'hard' after so much time.

=====

Anyways, I run a slow intermediate pace when taking my time, and a fast intermediate when pushing. Suggestions for tires to be used with warmers?

I usually get 3-5 trackdays in per year, so hopefully these will last me at least two years.

Cheers,
Kelvyn
I thought slicks and race dots are limited to a certain number of heat cycles? Two year heat cycles sounds like a bunch, at least to me...
 
#8 ·
Michelin Power One. No warmers needed, and not advised as they have some type of sylica technology that makes them warm up fast. I did about 10 trackdays on them this year at very upper intermediate pace, and didn't go through a single front completely. Went through 3 rears but that is mainly because of the super abrasive track I was on.
 
#9 ·
how has no one said the pirelli superbike pro slick? can be used with or without warmers, and last a STUPID amount of time. jtolles was running advanced pace on them and they never slipped at all - and i was on my ntecs. granted, mine never slipped either, but he was still slightly faster, that bastard.
 
#21 ·
:fact

Word is they are releasing an updated version. Someone told me to ask Tommy about it. I gotta find out.

That's how I ended up runnin fast laps on em. I use them when it's intermediate conditions (wet, not pouring, or wet in just some spots). Well, the track dried up during a session and I decided to see what they had to offer me. Other than being nervous about too much trail braking, they were a ton of fun and have grip like the TD slicks too. The 190 gets out of shape on the R6 rim, and that kept my lean angles reasonable, but still got me within 10 seconds of most AMA supersport riders. I fcukin love those tires.
 
#26 ·
Not to push sales away from forum vendors, but with the pace you're describing, you're honestly too slow for slicks. They won't be to optimum temp unless you push them harder than your current skillset allows.

Go with the street/track tire of the Michelin.

PS, Pure's are out and being replaced by the Power 3's.
 
#27 ·
Not to push sales away from forum vendors, but with the pace you're describing, you're honestly too slow for slicks. They won't be to optimum temp unless you push them harder than your current skillset allows.

Go with the street/track tire of the Michelin.

PS, Pure's are out and being replaced by the Power 3's.
That's not what Tommy posted the other day! I think he said the pure was to stay and the pilot power or one of the other pilot tires was becoming the power 3 IIRC?

http://www.r6-forum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2676528
 
#31 ·
OP I'm running The Pirelli SP's and they are so awesome! I'll run through a few sets of these and then make the transition To The SC race compounds. For a street/track tire I don't think there's better grip Out there. Not only insane grip, but softer compound which helps keep the suspension smooth and settled! Recommended to me by none other then Anthony of BAUCE Racing. Such a sweet tire! I'll be able advance my pace with this into expert I'm sure... They are that awesome! Just my two cents...

:cheers
 
#38 ·
I made it well into the advanced class with the old school original pilot powers. The street tires being produced today are more than capable to cover a wide range of skillsets.
 
#39 ·
They also operate in damn near any temperature range as well!

They are also excellent in the wet too.

I found the pures weren't lasting me very long on the rear due to heavy hand syndrome so that's when I switched to the slicks for most of my first season!

It sucks if u don't have anything for the rain tho
 
#46 ·
I'm rocking the RS's right now and I know you have heard me say it Ant. I feel like my front end is constantly pushing. Not really sure if it my forks or my front tire. I might try to switch to the SP's or something before the season starts back up. I like the way the Pro Slicks are sounding but I just don't want to get caught in the rain and have to pack my shit up since I don't have a spair set of wheels.
 
#47 ·
Hey guys,

On my last TD, I had two(!) crashes in the same day.
In both cases I tucked the front tire, and have determined it was due to tires.

BT-003RS, with 3 years of use, and 2 years of warmers. The track I usually ride is slow and thus I still have plenty of tread left. I guess the tires are just 'hard' after so much time.

=====

Anyways, I run a slow intermediate pace when taking my time, and a fast intermediate when pushing. Suggestions for tires to be used with warmers?

I usually get 3-5 trackdays in per year, so hopefully these will last me at least two years.

Cheers,
Kelvyn
3 year old tires? yeah, i'd say it was a tire issue.

get the same tires you had. don't use them more than 3 or 4 track weekends MAX. there are no tires that you can track for 2 years.

dude, you gotta either use your head to think or use it to skid to a stop when you wreck...


s3aturnr
 
#52 ·
It's definitely not a great intermediate tire cause the front is terrible to keep hot unless you're fast on em or it's hella hot out.

And the front tire has a VERY limited range of operating pressure where it feels good and performs best at.

They heat cycle OK, but when mine aren't on warmers I can usually spin the rear without even clutching when they are cold after being used a few times.

They also are absolutely pitiful in the rain. A disgrace IMO.
 
#49 ·
I don't know?????? I am the last to blame tires as being the culprit for any crash no matter what. You either ride right, or you crash. If the tires are tired and worn, you rode above them, if the tires are cold and you crashed, you rode above them, if the tires are brand new, or on cords and you crashed, you rode above them........

I'm not saying that your a bad rider and that you have no idea, but making a mistake, or having bad riding habits can make even the best tire fail. Twice in one day is a LOT!!!!!! even if the tire is bad. You not only went around it once but twice!!!!!! You can easily blame it on the tire which is honestly pretty well used, but you should be able to know and keep it in check?

What I'm really saying is that the tire may not be all to blame. It could be a rider issue? The new tire may give you the needed confidence and may keep you up, but that doesn't mean it's the tire. It may be simply that you changed the way you ride on that new tire?

The street tires tires are good for A group pace for short periods of time, after a few laps they fall apart and can make for an interesting ride. If you ride above them they are going to disappoint for sure. Even a really good track tire will do the same. It is rider responsibility to READ his tires. They may not allow him to carry the pace he once had on them, but he should be able to read them enough to stay on two wheels.......

Try any track day tire and you will have better performance, but if you have bad habits, they will still let you fall no matter what. They will also let you down far sooner than those who are doing much faster times if your habits are bad. Keep an even head about tires, they are different, but still perform predictably to bad riding habits. On the gas too late, or too hard are sure fire ways to make a front tire mad on corner entry, or mid turn. The front tire is the hardest to loose. But if your off the gas, or on it too much, all bets are off.........
 
#50 · (Edited)
you rode above them........
Oh, I completely agree on all of your points.

I must have had my head up my ass that day. When my rear tire slid unexpectedly in my first session I should have gotten the hint that my tires weren't up to snuff anymore. :dunce:

In the past, I have pushed the front a little, adjusted my BP to compensate and was fine, whereas in both cases here the tire just let go suddenly.

I thought I knew how to read tires, I guess I need more education on how to look for a heat-cycled tire. (bluing of the rubber? I'm still in the dark on this one)

My riding skills are absolutely to blame. I only get to (ride the R6) and do 3-5 trackdays per year with my student budget and schedule. This year I only got three in.
The first day I am getting used to the bike all over again. The second day I'm settling in and setting consistent times, and the third day I set new PB times. I've done the same thing two years in a row.

I've been told by a few in-the-know people from the local SOAR race group that I have a lot of potential, after they've seen me ride and see how much time I can pull off my laps in the course of a day.

But I absolutely have many bad habits. It doesn't help when you take that much time off of your laps in the course of a day.
I've been counting on my tires to keep my ass off the pavement when I make them, and I just ran out of tire (and luck) all at once that day.

I hope in the future I can get more tracktime per year and really focus on getting rid of all my bad habits, rather then going fast.

Unfortunately sometimes I just go into 'race-mode' and stop actively thinking about and improving my skills on the track, and instead push for laptimes. I blame my Italian blood :D
 
#53 · (Edited)
I ran bt-003rs' this year (track only) and I actually really liked them. I did have one lowside but that was more rider error and physics than a tire issue. Though when it broke loose it did seem quite sudden. I still blame myself. I was planning on running the same tires again next year since I'm still pretty slow and I haven't made the jump to warmers yet. This thread has me thinking about changing though. Right now, I'm thinking Power Pures / Power 3's.

I should also mention that my tire experiance is quite limited. I have used the crappy stock dunlops, bt-016 and bt-003rs.

Below are some pictures of my tires from this season. I only ran this one set and did about 8 half days and 2 full days. I'd say the tires are pretty well shot at this point.








Anyone have any additional thoughts or recommendations that have not already been said?
 
#54 ·
Below are some pictures of my tires from this season. I only ran this one set and did about 8 half days and 2 full days. I'd say the tires are pretty well shot at this point.
yeah, the rear is definitely done for sure. the front looks like it's still got some meat on it, tho. but, the rubber may or may not be finished from time and use.

i ran street/track tires like the dunlop q2 and bridgestone bt-003rs all the way up to advanced group without issue. i didn't have warmers on them, either. they are a decent tire for a bike that sees both street and track miles. summer 2012 was the first season i started using DOTs and warmers.

old rubber can be just as bad as worn rubber...


s3aturnr
 
#55 ·
I have read some stuff that says running on used and worn tires will help a rider learn what the tires will do when they are used and worn. Not that it is a fun way to learn, but knowledge is power.

My biggest thing is discovering what is wrong, or broken. You can't fix something if you don't know what is wrong. Now if you do the exact same thing ten times in a row and on the tenth time, shit hits the fan, then you have to figure out what went wrong. In your case it could have been the tires? Could have also been that your riding habit finally bit you?

I would read twist of the wrist II and really apply that knowledge. I think you will find that even on the worst tires ever, you can go much further than you currently are. I don't mean to offend, or put you down, I really want you to succeed.

As far as reading tires? It's a best guess thing. A tire that has been to 3 track days in a year and is nearly a year old, is going to be pretty much done. The compounds in the tire work on heat and are set in motion by it. The heat causes a reaction that allows the tire to work a certain way. Some will argue that once this reaction is set in motion the tires have a limited life span. I tend to agree....... It's not that it's actually a reaction ( like baking soda and vinegar ) that once it starts, it goes till it stops. It's that you use up the best of what the tire has to offer in the early stages of it's use. If you let it sit around for a while it starts to break down more and the ability for the tire to react as if it were new, is greatly diminished. If you were to use the tire at 3 track days in as many months you may have found it to be higher performing even though it has the same actual use. The only reason being that when a tire sits, it loses it's ability to perform.

Some go on about heat cycles and all that fun stuff, but I think the reality is that it is a time thing. You can burn the whole tire up in a day and have great performance all day? you could use the thing 3 times in a year and have little or no performance by the end of the year? I think it's a matter of what you use in the initial stages of it's life. Anything after the first use is a matter of diminishing returns. The longer you sit on it, the lower the return is. If you do three track days in a month you will probably get close to new performance even on the 3rd track day. That is how I feel about any tire. They like to be used more often than not.
 
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