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Old 11-05-2012, 11:45 AM   #21
MaxxxEdge
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Re: Getting the bike turned quickly

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Originally Posted by misti View Post
I hope you mean this in a good way

THE Misti
Of course I do...

I've enjoyed following you around SOW more than once... in more than one way...

Seems your site hasn't been updated in a while... still racing?
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Old 11-05-2012, 11:54 AM   #22
misti
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Re: Getting the bike turned quickly

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Originally Posted by MaxxxEdge View Post
Are you THE Misti???
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Originally Posted by MaxxxEdge View Post
Of course I do...

I've enjoyed following you around SOW more than once... in more than one way...

Seems your site hasn't been updated in a while... still racing?


I'm not racing anymore, two little kids, a three year old boy and a one year old girl take up most of my time. I still try to fit in coaching whenever possible, I was at the Ridge with CSS in July and have done some private coaching and coaching some up and coming little kids. I try to ride when I get the chance, yesterday it was moto x, I'm stiff today! I have my old race bike in the shed waiting for a good flogging, and I'm writing for a couple of magazines as well.

Take care!
Misti
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Old 11-05-2012, 12:03 PM   #23
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Re: Getting the bike turned quickly

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Originally Posted by misti View Post


I'm not racing anymore, two little kids, a three year old boy and a one year old girl take up most of my time. I still try to fit in coaching whenever possible, I was at the Ridge with CSS in July and have done some private coaching and coaching some up and coming little kids. I try to ride when I get the chance, yesterday it was moto x, I'm stiff today! I have my old race bike in the shed waiting for a good flogging, and I'm writing for a couple of magazines as well.

Take care!
Misti
For the sake of my now bubble-burst fantasy, I'm going to pretend I didn't read that first sentence, though I guess I can now consider you a MILF... On a serious note, congratulations!!! I'm sure its a great new chapter for you, but certainly a loss for the CSS students who don't get to have you as an instructor. Maybe your little ones will fill your shoes one day...

For whom do you write?
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Old 11-05-2012, 04:23 PM   #24
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Re: Getting the bike turned quickly

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Originally Posted by misti View Post
OK, good explanation.

So here is another question for you based on your situation/experience above. In the corner that you were having issues with, the off camber turn at Spring Mountain Motorsports Ranch, do you have a good solid reference point for where you want to apex? What is it?

How might having a really good solid mid point reference point influence on how quickly/easily you get the bike turned and why?

Misti
For that turn in particular, there's curbing on the inside that I use as my reference point. It's a pretty tricky turn - as it's uphill left-hander on the way in, crests near the apex, and you need to stay inside to line yourself up for the right-hander that follows and lead onto the front straight. I was trying to apex basically at the crest. Not totally sure that it's the right place to aim for, but I definitely have solid spot that I'm aiming for.

If you don't have a specific RP you're aiming for, it's awfully hard to act decisively and decide when to begin and end your steering input.

Quote:
Originally Posted by luke geis View Post
You are certainly right about needing to change directions faster, but remember you will also need to have a later turn in point to take advantage of it. Man handling the bike is a quick way to get the thing out of shape and unhappy. Starting to move around while initiating the turn is also a sure way to unsettle the machine. I have also found in some cases where it seems like your pushing and pulling as hard as you can on the bars and there is no change in direction going on. It doesn't change direction because your actually fighting your self on the bars.

Try this.... Go into the turn at a safe pace that you know is ok. Wait a little longer to turn than normal ( not too much ) and then turn the bike quicker by pushing on the inside bar a little harder than normal. Don't try pulling with the other side quite yet. So if your turning left you push with your left hand and leave your right hand relaxed on the bar and visa versa for a right hand turn. If you do find that you feel as if no change in direction is being made even when you believe your putting input into the bars, try relaxing the grip oin the bar to the outside of the turn. This is a little more difficult for left turns since you need to hold the gas open, but it can be done. What you should find is that once you release your grip on the bar the bike should change direction more and with greater ease. This is because your no longer fighting yourself.

Once you get the hang of pushing the inside bar and you can change direction quicker, then work in pushing and pulling at the same time. You should find that it now becomes easier to make that same direction change, then you can work on yet again waiting longer to turn and turning quicker. Just don't go for the gusto until your certain you have things nailed down.
I always try to steer by consciously pushing the inside bar. I do have trouble relaxing and getting my head over/down for left hand turns though, and this is in fact one of those. The left-hander, combined with the fact that it's blind may be enough that I'm tensing up on the bars and not noticing.

Thanks Luke & Misti!

I'm headed out to Chuckwalla this Friday, which has a really similar turn, so hopefully I'll be able to some progress on it there.
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Old 11-06-2012, 03:04 PM   #25
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Re: Getting the bike turned quickly

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Originally Posted by Fallis View Post
For that turn in particular, there's curbing on the inside that I use as my reference point. It's a pretty tricky turn - as it's uphill left-hander on the way in, crests near the apex, and you need to stay inside to line yourself up for the right-hander that follows and lead onto the front straight. I was trying to apex basically at the crest. Not totally sure that it's the right place to aim for, but I definitely have solid spot that I'm aiming for.

If you don't have a specific RP you're aiming for, it's awfully hard to act decisively and decide when to begin and end your steering input.

I always try to steer by consciously pushing the inside bar. I do have trouble relaxing and getting my head over/down for left hand turns though, and this is in fact one of those. The left-hander, combined with the fact that it's blind may be enough that I'm tensing up on the bars and not noticing.

Thanks Luke & Misti!

I'm headed out to Chuckwalla this Friday, which has a really similar turn, so hopefully I'll be able to some progress on it there.
Sounds like you have a good RP to aim for which is really good, now what about the timing of WHEN you look into that turn? How early do you look at the apex before you actually turn the bike? Is it LOOK...TURN, or LOOK...................TURN? How might the timing of your look in have an effect on how well you get through that corner?

Misti

Have fun at Chuckwalla!!!
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Old 11-07-2012, 05:35 AM   #26
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Re: Getting the bike turned quickly

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Originally Posted by Fallis View Post
I always try to steer by consciously pushing the inside bar.
This is a problem. You're thinking more than you should.

Turning the motorcycle should be inherently natural. Don't THINK about making your head do it ("okay brain, start pushing more... a little less... okay more" because that creates more time it takes you to tell your brain to your brain making your hand do it. There's so much more you need to be aware of once you hit that apex.

It takes time/training/practice and seat time.... but your brain will go turn turn turn on it's own without you having to tell it.

The only thing I'm consciously aware of (most of the time) is when to brake and when to get the gas. I won't even remember what lap I'm on in a race until I see a half way or last lap flag..... if I see/notice the flag at all. Sometimes white just shows up lol.
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Old 11-07-2012, 05:14 PM   #27
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Re: Getting the bike turned quickly

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Originally Posted by Mr. Azim View Post
This is a problem. You're thinking more than you should.

Turning the motorcycle should be inherently natural. Don't THINK about making your head do it ("okay brain, start pushing more... a little less... okay more" because that creates more time it takes you to tell your brain to your brain making your hand do it. There's so much more you need to be aware of once you hit that apex.

It takes time/training/practice and seat time.... but your brain will go turn turn turn on it's own without you having to tell it.

The only thing I'm consciously aware of (most of the time) is when to brake and when to get the gas. I won't even remember what lap I'm on in a race until I see a half way or last lap flag..... if I see/notice the flag at all. Sometimes white just shows up lol.
I hear what you're saying. My best lap times always come when I stop thinking so hard, and just go out, relax, and just ride. I usually end up doing that with 1 or 2 afternoon sessions, and spend most of the day taking it a little slower, and trying to work on specific spots where I'm having issues, trying different things to see what works, etc.

I'm not racing (all though I'd like to) - and a good chunk of my track day time is spent going quite a bit slower than I know I'm capable of, intentionally.
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Old 11-07-2012, 07:17 PM   #28
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Re: Getting the bike turned quickly

Keep in mind at some point you will have to push and pull at the same time in order to change direction quick enough. Speed has many caveats involved. Most are related to ones inability to produce a needed action in time.

Here are some nifty pointers.

1. Most inexperienced riders turn too early even when going slow.

2. Most riders that feel rushed don't have things like braking points, turn in points, apexes and exit points figured out before they get to a particular turn.

3. Most of the issues caused by speed is a riders lack of foresight. I.E. they aren't looking far enough ahead and points 1 & 2 become true. Point one is a natural ( but very incorrect ) reaction. Point 2 is a modifier to the problem. Even if you know your points, you must still be able to follow through and complete the action : )

As an example I have my speedo covered with a sticker that says RELAX. I never read it though cause I am always looking ahead. But I know it's there and I remember to do the instruction.

With great speed comes great responsibility. Know thy markers/points and execute the required actions with a true mind and ability. Only then a Jedi can you become..........
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Old 11-08-2012, 05:26 AM   #29
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Re: Getting the bike turned quickly

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Originally Posted by Fallis View Post
a good chunk of my track day time is spent going quite a bit slower than I know I'm capable of, intentionally.
Hmmmm...... can't say I agree with this method. You'll basically train your head to be "comfortable" going slower. I'll have the hairs on the back of my neck stand when I make a turn faster or find a new braking point. It isn't a "oh shit" moment, but basically my body saying "I've done this before, but not this fast!". But the next time I do it, I won't get that rush again, body/brain get used to it.

And from a technical point of view: practice/trackdays should be used for tuning suspension at the very least, not just 'learning lines'. Your suspension will react very differently going 20-30 km/h slower or faster. If you're set for your "slow pace", It's likely you'll run into problems when you get to your BWAHHHHH pace.

And on a personal note: where's the fun in that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by luke geis View Post
1. Most inexperienced riders turn too early even when going slow.
Or they turn too tight, especially on the exit in fear of going wide and hitting the grass. That was my biggest mistake I corrected this season. Just don't look at the grass :P
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Last edited by Mr. Azim; 11-08-2012 at 05:32 AM.
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Old 11-08-2012, 09:52 AM   #30
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Re: Getting the bike turned quickly

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Originally Posted by Mr. Azim View Post
Hmmmm...... can't say I agree with this method. You'll basically train your head to be "comfortable" going slower. I'll have the hairs on the back of my neck stand when I make a turn faster or find a new braking point. It isn't a "oh shit" moment, but basically my body saying "I've done this before, but not this fast!". But the next time I do it, I won't get that rush again, body/brain get used to it.

And from a technical point of view: practice/trackdays should be used for tuning suspension at the very least, not just 'learning lines'. Your suspension will react very differently going 20-30 km/h slower or faster. If you're set for your "slow pace", It's likely you'll run into problems when you get to your BWAHHHHH pace.

And on a personal note: where's the fun in that?
Well, I'm not talking about poking around the whole track in 2nd gear or anything. There's a definite bell curve to my pace over the course of a track day though. First session usually has a slow sighting lap, so you only end up with 2-3 hot laps, and the brain and body is warming up. Session or two after that I'm starting to get in the groove and probably 3-4 seconds off my previous pace. Next 2-3 session in the middle of the day I'll try to really push, and (hopefully) pick up a few seconds from my last outting. Then the last session or two I'm usually starting to run out of steam and I'll back off a little and work on body position, or just being smoother, etc.

Progress has been slow though, so maybe I need to go out there and just start bombing it from the get go. The times that I do that though, I'll either start making a ton of mistakes, or I'll go way faster, and have no idea why. There's one specific time I can think of where I dropped like 3 seconds following a control rider, but I have no idea what I did different and couldn't repeat it, I was just so totally focused on staying pinned as close to the back of him as I could. He also said something dickish when we were talking before we went out like "Yeah, well maybe this just isn't for you" and I was absolutely determined to stay right on his ass.


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Originally Posted by Mr. Azim View Post
Or they turn too tight, especially on the exit in fear of going wide and hitting the grass. That was my biggest mistake I corrected this season. Just don't look at the grass :P
I tend to have the opposite problem, where I'm frequently trying to turn in too late. I think it comes from riding almost 10 years on the street, where out in the canyons I'm hesitant to to commit to a turn until I can see all the way through it - so if a corner is blind at all, I end up waiting way too long. I've gotten a lot better about it though.
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