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Old 11-06-2012, 07:12 AM   #11
MELK-MAN
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Re: Ohlins fork and shock spring question

Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwiracer View Post
I'll throw my two cents worth in here. I am consistently running 1.0's with varying weight riders. The lightest was 115 pounds (!) and he was almost using all the fork travel. The R6 is under sprung on the front from factory and they are .92's. If you are using all the fork travel and the preload is maxed you need stiffer front spring full stop. Damping can only do so much to control braking forces. It may pay to drop a 1.0 in the r/h leg first for an effective .975 rate.

On the rear the .95 should be in the ball park depending on valving as the opposite is true from the front (the rear spring is too stiff).

Both rates will depend a lot on what gearing and how long the swingarm is.
you are likely getting false info about how much travel your rider is using, due to fork oil level.. use low enough fork oil level, and yea, even with a 1.0 front springs you will occasionally see the zip tie at the bottom. Oil level is the way you control the bottom part of the stroke. Put enough oil IN the forks, and you could keep an .875 set off the bottom, but it may not be the rite spring to keep the bike in the "best" part of the fork stroke..
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Old 11-06-2012, 09:20 AM   #12
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Re: Ohlins fork and shock spring question

I agree thet oil level does firm it up at the lower end of the stroke but to stop it blowing through with .875 it would probably need to be hydraulic locking. We are running 165mm air gap in our 30's in the spare bike so not overly low.
The forks are good enough for the rider to hold lap records at four of the five tracks used for national competition over here (one he broke by 1.7 seconds). We run a modified C3 compression stack with an extra shim in to aid braking stability.
The 115 pound rider I mentioned was my main riders 14 year old brother who jumped on for his first time ever (above a 250 Ninja) and lapped within 4 seconds of the pace with 1.0's installed. They were a little stiff for him but I'll probably only drop them to .95 next time.
As I've said in previous threads spring rate is relative. You can't say for a particular rider that a spring is too soft or heavy without trying it. Rider weight, swingarm length, valving, riding style all comes into it. I have worked with Ohlins, WP and Showa at home, up in Japan and Australia so I'd like to think I don't blow smoke up peoples nether regions.
The things I noted from this guys original post is the forks feel ok but it sounds like their blowing through the stroke under braking. Oil level would be one thing I look at but I would probably try springs first unless the oil was horrendously low. Some people making an unusual choice of running a high oil level as well which effectively creates an amount of hydraulic locking and works against what the valving is trying to do.
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Old 11-06-2012, 09:27 AM   #13
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Re: Ohlins fork and shock spring question

Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwiracer View Post
I agree thet oil level does firm it up at the lower end of the stroke but to stop it blowing through with .875 it would probably need to be hydraulic locking. We are running 165mm air gap in our 30's in the spare bike so not overly low.
The forks are good enough for the rider to hold lap records at four of the five tracks used for national competition over here (one he broke by 1.7 seconds). We run a modified C3 compression stack with an extra shim in to aid braking stability.
The 115 pound rider I mentioned was my main riders 14 year old brother who jumped on for his first time ever (above a 250 Ninja) and lapped within 4 seconds of the pace with 1.0's installed. They were a little stiff for him but I'll probably only drop them to .95 next time.
As I've said in previous threads spring rate is relative. You can't say for a particular rider that a spring is too soft or heavy without trying it. Rider weight, swingarm length, valving, riding style all comes into it. I have worked with Ohlins, WP and Showa at home, up in Japan and Australia so I'd like to think I don't blow smoke up peoples nether regions.
The things I noted from this guys original post is the forks feel ok but it sounds like their blowing through the stroke under braking. Oil level would be one thing I look at but I would probably try springs first unless the oil was horrendously low. Some people making an unusual choice of running a high oil level as well which effectively creates an amount of hydraulic locking and works against what the valving is trying to do.
agree. and the valving is something i am just not that familiar with to comment. I tell my guy "it's doing this and this".. some changes are made, but at my level i usually trust him and just run with it, and I don't make valving changes but maybe once or twice a year. Nice thing about working with a tech for many years.. they have a pretty good idea of what will work for a rider and what won't.
As you said, lots of things can determine springs, valving, oil levels, etc. I even went to a slightly higher spring rate with the newer michelin cup tires vs. the prior power1 tires. We now have more grip, which leads to more corner speed, more braking while tipping in, all that good stuff.
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Old 11-06-2012, 09:32 AM   #14
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Re: Ohlins fork and shock spring question

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Originally Posted by MELK-MAN View Post
agree. and the valving is something i am just not that familiar with to comment. I tell my guy "it's doing this and this".. some changes are made, but at my level i usually trust him and just run with it, and I don't make valving changes but maybe once or twice a year. Nice thing about working with a tech for many years.. they have a pretty good idea of what will work for a rider and what won't.
As you said, lots of things can determine springs, valving, oil levels, etc. I even went to a slightly higher spring rate with the newer michelin cup tires vs. the prior power1 tires. We now have more grip, which leads to more corner speed, more braking while tipping in, all that good stuff.
When switching from the P1 to the cups, what kind of compression changes did you make on the bike Greg? I am sure with this much more traction you were getting some serious squat in the rear as well as the other things you mentioned!! Was it enough to need a different spring, or just a couple clicks stiffer?
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Old 11-06-2012, 10:42 AM   #15
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Re: Ohlins fork and shock spring question

Quote:
Originally Posted by MELK-MAN View Post
agree. and the valving is something i am just not that familiar with to comment. I tell my guy "it's doing this and this".. some changes are made, but at my level i usually trust him and just run with it, and I don't make valving changes but maybe once or twice a year. Nice thing about working with a tech for many years.. they have a pretty good idea of what will work for a rider and what won't.
As you said, lots of things can determine springs, valving, oil levels, etc. I even went to a slightly higher spring rate with the newer michelin cup tires vs. the prior power1 tires. We now have more grip, which leads to more corner speed, more braking while tipping in, all that good stuff.
That's right, I'm not saying anyone is wrong here but gut feel tells me that he probably needs to go higher in the spring rate especially as he said he was running a lot of preload to try to compensate as well.
What was quite interesting to us is we took our new Gas cartridges to Australia for one of their championship rounds in August (after one ride to set up) and didn't have to change valving going from Metzeler to the US Dunlop control tyres. The rear shock needed to be changed quite a bit but the forks were fine with a small amount of tuning.
The other thing we have found this year is an Ohlins kit that is a new main piston in the TTX with a shim stack. That has got us probably the biggest gain on these shocks in two years. It allows the running of a firmer shim stack in the compression valve without being harsh further down the stroke. Great for hold exiting corners!
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Old 11-06-2012, 03:16 PM   #16
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Re: Ohlins fork and shock spring question

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Originally Posted by ChiefSmokeDawg View Post
When switching from the P1 to the cups, what kind of compression changes did you make on the bike Greg? I am sure with this much more traction you were getting some serious squat in the rear as well as the other things you mentioned!! Was it enough to need a different spring, or just a couple clicks stiffer?
it wasn't so much compression or rebound. my forks are valved similar, and i may go a couple clicks one way or the other throughout the weekend. it was more spring rate going up both front and rear. Last year, running times +-5 seconds off the track record at the tracks we run here in FL, i was .875 rear with an Ohlins TTX and .90 to .95 up front depending on which track.. within a couple weekends on the cups, we went to .90 at the rear and ditched the Ohlins in favor of the JRi shocks.. and i am consistantly .25-.5 firmer up front (ohlins 25mm not the newer 30mm) with the Cups vs. the old power1 tires..

i'm not running a ton of preload up front.. not at all. and about 200mm oil level from the top of the tube with the spacer out.
not saying my setup is best, but it works for me and i will say it's in the ballpark of what many other fast riders are running. I tend to have a bit more above the triple clamps showing too. partly due to the taller Michelin front tire, i have 10mm showing above clamp. (not including cap) where many guys with the r6 run the tubes flush, or even have the cap flush with the triple.
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Old 01-10-2013, 04:05 PM   #17
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Re: Ohlins fork and shock spring question

Hey, jumping in late here but this is a good discussion.

What are you guys running for rear shock length? (TTX and FGK 30s on my '09)

Running your forks caps flush too?

Seems to work better tall and long, but without a good suspension guy to help I'm just a moderately fast expert who's fiddling with knobs on my own.
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Old 01-11-2013, 05:53 PM   #18
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Re: Ohlins fork and shock spring question

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Originally Posted by danaatscootdotnet View Post
Hey, jumping in late here but this is a good discussion.

What are you guys running for rear shock length? (TTX and FGK 30s on my '09)

Running your forks caps flush too?

Seems to work better tall and long, but without a good suspension guy to help I'm just a moderately fast expert who's fiddling with knobs on my own.
292 mm shock length seems to be what i remember but do not quote me on that.. many run forks flush, but i run 10mm showing above (08 r6). keep in mind the michelin front is 10mm taller or so than the pirelli or dunlop, so you would run 5mm showing above with the michelin if you had flush with the others.. however that whole "gotta run em flush" thing is not what works for everyone. Try flush, then try 10mm showing above. see what you think .
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Old 01-12-2013, 06:38 PM   #19
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Re: Ohlins fork and shock spring question

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292 mm shock length seems to be what i remember but do not quote me on that.
No worries. Thx. Just pulling stuff apart for service. Can't even remember where I had it sent, and didn't write it down last spring. Lame.

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michelin front is 10mm taller or so than the pirelli or dunlop
Thx. I may be on 'lops this year. Got great wear out of them, but the bib man and trackside vendor have been so good to me. Tough call.

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