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Getting the bike turned quickly

9K views 52 replies 24 participants last post by  Gundamzeppelin 
#1 ·
We all know getting the bike turned in as quickly as possible is good. Allows you to turn in later, use less lean angle, spend less time at max lean angle, etc. etc.

I often hear riders that are much faster than myself talk about "snapping" the bike in, or "wacking" the bars to get the bike over quickly. I tend to make pretty slow, gradual steer inputs. The times that I consciously approach a corner thinking "ok, I'm going to try to turn in a little later, and just really huck it over quickly" it ends up REALLY upsetting the chassis.

So ... who's got some tips for me to get the bike turned quickly, but smoothly?

I suspect it's probably a body position / weighting thing where I'm fighting the bike trying to tip-in, but I feel like I'm doing everything I normally do, minus the trying to countersteer harder.
 
#3 ·
having the bike set is key. by set I mean on the front brakes pushing the front tire into the pavement with good weight transfer. Be planted in your body position, as in don't be moving off to the side while trying to turn in, or the bike gets upset. Have your bp done before you enter the corner when possible.

Smooth is part of goin fast. Push on the bar AND pull on the other. (pushing inside bar obviously) . doing both, push and pull, gets the bike on it's side faster than just pushing. I think "snap" it over may be too strong of a verb for the right way.. but as you stated, getting the bike on the side too slow kills lap times. You are correct. The faster you can get the bike over, the longer you can stay on the gas approaching the corner (twist of the wrist II "101")

Good downshifting is key too. Downshift too early and the revs get pulled up by the rear tire even if you blip the throttle, and the bike will back in more than ya need. Slamming 3-4 downshifts as fast as you can is not good either. Brake awhile, then start downshifting in a purposeful manner, but not so fast your left clutch hand is flying.

190 tires will help a bike turn in sometimes.. the extra rear grip keeps the bike in line at times better than a 180 when entering a corner. Especially big sweepers. But some corners may benefit a 180 tire. IT's all give and take. No perfect setup.
 
#4 ·
Hmm, I have a habit of getting my ass off the seat well before turn-in, but I don't move my head down and over until the bike starts tipping in.

Bad idea? Do you get your body completely set (one cheek off, knee out, head down outside of the windshield, towards the inside of the turn) all before you give the bars any input? If so - how do you finish braking / downshifting when you're in that position on the bike?
 
#5 ·
no perfect way, there are lots of styles that will work. just watch a race on tv! lots of ways people are goin real fast.
i do try to get my weight shifted a bit to the inside (1 cheek off the seat) and start looking through the corner, but i dont' hang my body off right away. i find still being upright with the body helps lean the bike over faster. Then i kinda move my body onto the tank .. as you wondered, i would guess it would be hard to brake if you are hanging off the inside before you start to tip in.. but just do what works, but watch good riders be it at the track or on TV. Emulate those riders till you find what you can do comfortably at a good pace.
 
#6 ·
I shortened my wheelbase back up, dropped 1mm on the forks, 2 mm on sag and the bike is more nosed down now, but cannot run wide, turns stupid sharp, wheelies are a snap of the wrist away now too. Same tires as before too. When I switch back to the pirelli's which are a few mm lower I should be able to fast turn in even later.

IMO, if you're off the bike and cant throw it down quick so your knee is on the ground, your bike needs adjustments. Tall bikes are hard and slow to tip. That plus a long wheelbase makes it turn slower. You wind up with a shitty super bike line at the longest end of the spectrum. Look at the guys bikes who are hauling ass, and you'll see lower front ride height, taller tails on the bike too, etc.

It's all a compromise. What tires and what's your setup like? Sag, ride height from stock, tire sizes, tire type, etc?
 
#7 · (Edited)
I know setup factors into it - but I'm really more interested in technique at the moment.

Like I said before - I've had guys describe it to me as 'snapping' the bike, or 'whacking the inside bar' to get the bike turned fast, and anytime I've tried doing anything I would describe that way, it unsettles the bike and makes me poop my pants a little.

The vibe I'm picking up from Greg is basically "Uh, yeah. Don't do that." :laugh I went looking through pictures & video a bit this afternoon and I think my issues are more likely due to not getting my head down enough and not looking far enough ahead more so that trying to push on the bars harder.
 
#8 ·
if you are going fast, nothing is done wicked quick..like no jamming the front brakes, no snapping the bike over.. it's a controlled snap for lack of a better description? yes, you have to get it on the edge of the tire as soon as you can, but as you are suspecting, harsh inputs unsettle the bike, and can have you run wide or waiting to get on the gas, missing apexes, etc.
Also of much importance, are turn in points, brake markers (either some permanent landmark or actual "4-3-2-1" markers"), etc.

Watch the AMA supersport class, or world supersport. They look SOOOO smooth, you would swear that with a few courses, a night at a Holiday Inn Express, and a Red-Bull you could run laps just like they do. Negatory. :) If you look close-er, you will see them occasionally pushing the front tire, and big rear slides from engine braking/rear brake (those are not so hard to see.. ). Absolute, on the limit, front tire pushing madness. The fastest 600cc riders have amazing feel for the front end, as it's all about keeping momentum up as the bikes are so equal. That means running into the corners crazy fast, but to not lowside 5 times a weekend, you have to be SMOOOOTTH. Smooth but deliberate with inputs.
 
#10 ·
Yeah, I got to stand right at the edge of the track while Corey Alexander and James Rispoli backed it into various corners at the STAR school. Heh, or on the back of Jason Pridmore's bike. (No backing it in, but still running a hell of a pace.)

But those dudes look like they're just hanging out on the bike, taking it easy, setting up for afternoon tea.
 
#11 ·
exactly what i tell anyone when talking riding, i'm no pro, just finished my first full season riding at the track, still gaining experience and learning every day at the track but being smooth is what has allowed my riding to improve so much this year and pick up a faster pace nearly every TD.

Yeah, I got to stand right at the edge of the track while Corey Alexander and James Rispoli backed it into various corners at the STAR school. Heh, or on the back of Jason Pridmore's bike. (No backing it in, but still running a hell of a pace.)

But those dudes look like they're just hanging out on the bike, taking it easy, setting up for afternoon tea.
Yea they are so fast and graceful at the same time.
 
#12 ·
All the previous posts are very good tips, although I would say you'll only get better with experience and time. Your confidence builds up the more comfortable you get with your bike. Just don't push it too far if you're not sure what you're doing! :)
 
#13 ·
Good question. The simple answer here is that you just press the bar harder and the bike will turn in quicker.

But, you are obviously doing something that is making the bike feel unstable when you try to turn it quickly.

Are you pressing DOWN on the handlebar or FORWARD when you steer the bike? Are you pressing with smooth even (though quick) pressure or stabbing/jabbing at the bars?

How might any of the above effect your ability to get the bike turned quickly with the least amount of instability?

Misti

Hmm, I have a habit of getting my ass off the seat well before turn-in, but I don't move my head down and over until the bike starts tipping in.

Bad idea? Do you get your body completely set (one cheek off, knee out, head down outside of the windshield, towards the inside of the turn) all before you give the bars any input? If so - how do you finish braking / downshifting when you're in that position on the bike?
This is what I do. I move my butt of the seat and set up well before turn in but I keep squeezing the tank with both knees while braking and downshifting to keep myself from sliding forward into the tank and to keep excess weight off the bars. When I turn the bike I simply let my inside knee fall out and allow my upper body to go with the bike into the turn. I move my head forward and down farther only if I need too.

With both knees squeezing the tank it helps me keep my arms bent and nice and loose so I can quick turn the bike with as little effort/strength as possible.

Misti
 
#14 ·
Good question. The simple answer here is that you just press the bar harder and the bike will turn in quicker.

But, you are obviously doing something that is making the bike feel unstable when you try to turn it quickly.

Are you pressing DOWN on the handlebar or FORWARD when you steer the bike? Are you pressing with smooth even (though quick) pressure or stabbing/jabbing at the bars?

How might any of the above effect your ability to get the bike turned quickly with the least amount of instability?

Misti
The times that the bike gets unsettled are when I go out with the goal of trying to get the bike turned as quickly as I can, and try to physically push/turn the bars. It definitely ends up feeling like I'm stabbing/jabbing at the bars.

If I go out and focus on just "being" at the apex faster and getting my eyes / body pointed at it ahead of time, and putting pressure on the bars is a subtler, almost secondary action, it seems to be much more effective.

The thing that made me start the thread in the first place, was me having issues with a specific off-camber turn at Spring Mountain Motorsports Ranch. I knew I could get through it faster - I was watching guys walk away from me through the section all day long - but anytime I tried to come through a little faster I'd end up running way wide and I'd totally miss the apex.

Talking with a faster guy who was pitted near me, he said literally "Oh yeah, you really need to 'snap' the bike over there." Any attempts at "snapping" the bike didn't get me any closer to the apex and the bike felt like it was fighting what I was trying to do.
 
#26 · (Edited)
I always try to steer by consciously pushing the inside bar.
This is a problem. You're thinking more than you should.

Turning the motorcycle should be inherently natural. Don't THINK about making your head do it ("okay brain, start pushing more... a little less... okay more" because that creates more time it takes you to tell your brain to your brain making your hand do it. There's so much more you need to be aware of once you hit that apex.

It takes time/training/practice and seat time.... but your brain will go turn turn turn on it's own without you having to tell it.

The only thing I'm consciously aware of (most of the time) is when to brake and when to get the gas. I won't even remember what lap I'm on in a race until I see a half way or last lap flag..... if I see/notice the flag at all. Sometimes white just shows up lol.
 
#27 ·
This is a problem. You're thinking more than you should.

Turning the motorcycle should be inherently natural. Don't THINK about making your head do it ("okay brain, start pushing more... a little less... okay more" because that creates more time it takes you to tell your brain to your brain making your hand do it. There's so much more you need to be aware of once you hit that apex.

It takes time/training/practice and seat time.... but your brain will go turn turn turn on it's own without you having to tell it.

The only thing I'm consciously aware of (most of the time) is when to brake and when to get the gas. I won't even remember what lap I'm on in a race until I see a half way or last lap flag..... if I see/notice the flag at all. Sometimes white just shows up lol.
I hear what you're saying. My best lap times always come when I stop thinking so hard, and just go out, relax, and just ride. I usually end up doing that with 1 or 2 afternoon sessions, and spend most of the day taking it a little slower, and trying to work on specific spots where I'm having issues, trying different things to see what works, etc.

I'm not racing (all though I'd like to) - and a good chunk of my track day time is spent going quite a bit slower than I know I'm capable of, intentionally.
 
#18 ·
You are certainly right about needing to change directions faster, but remember you will also need to have a later turn in point to take advantage of it. Man handling the bike is a quick way to get the thing out of shape and unhappy. Starting to move around while initiating the turn is also a sure way to unsettle the machine. I have also found in some cases where it seems like your pushing and pulling as hard as you can on the bars and there is no change in direction going on. It doesn't change direction because your actually fighting your self on the bars.

Try this.... Go into the turn at a safe pace that you know is ok. Wait a little longer to turn than normal ( not too much ) and then turn the bike quicker by pushing on the inside bar a little harder than normal. Don't try pulling with the other side quite yet. So if your turning left you push with your left hand and leave your right hand relaxed on the bar and visa versa for a right hand turn. If you do find that you feel as if no change in direction is being made even when you believe your putting input into the bars, try relaxing the grip oin the bar to the outside of the turn. This is a little more difficult for left turns since you need to hold the gas open, but it can be done. What you should find is that once you release your grip on the bar the bike should change direction more and with greater ease. This is because your no longer fighting yourself.

Once you get the hang of pushing the inside bar and you can change direction quicker, then work in pushing and pulling at the same time. You should find that it now becomes easier to make that same direction change, then you can work on yet again waiting longer to turn and turning quicker. Just don't go for the gusto until your certain you have things nailed down.
 
#19 ·
Yes you will need a later turn in point to take advantage of quick turning the bike but it is pretty hard to convince yourself to take a later turn in point unless you are really confident that you can get the bike turned.

As a rider gets more confident with their ability to turn the bike quicker they can then feel more comfortable waiting a little longer to turn the bike. Parking lot practice, track and street practice can really help with this.

Quick turning not only comes from the ability to press harder on the handlebars to physically get the bike to turn, but also from your visual skills as well. Unless you really know where you want the bike to be in a corner, or where you want to turn it for that matter, it is hard to convince your hands to press the bar harder. It's easy to tell someone to "just turn the bike quicker" but there is often a lot more involved in actually getting it done.

Hence the reason for my above question to the OP about reference points in the corner he is having difficulty with.

:) Misti
 
#28 ·
Keep in mind at some point you will have to push and pull at the same time in order to change direction quick enough. Speed has many caveats involved. Most are related to ones inability to produce a needed action in time.

Here are some nifty pointers.

1. Most inexperienced riders turn too early even when going slow.

2. Most riders that feel rushed don't have things like braking points, turn in points, apexes and exit points figured out before they get to a particular turn.

3. Most of the issues caused by speed is a riders lack of foresight. I.E. they aren't looking far enough ahead and points 1 & 2 become true. Point one is a natural ( but very incorrect ) reaction. Point 2 is a modifier to the problem. Even if you know your points, you must still be able to follow through and complete the action : )

As an example I have my speedo covered with a sticker that says RELAX. I never read it though cause I am always looking ahead. But I know it's there and I remember to do the instruction.

With great speed comes great responsibility. Know thy markers/points and execute the required actions with a true mind and ability. Only then a Jedi can you become..........
 
#31 ·
I didn't see any mention of weighting the foot pegs.

I'd much rather get the bike to turn-in quickly with body position and weighting the inside footpeg than giving a strong steering input with the bars. The rotating mass of the bike is much closer to the peg than the bar, too.

2 cents from a guy who has hit the deck from excessive bar inputs a few too many times. :D
 
#32 ·
The issues the OP is experiencing goes beyond weighting the foot pegs. I never do, I transition enough with my body and handlebar inputs. If I'm in a situation where I need the extra input because of a higher than expected entry speed or pass, I'll weight them. But not every single turn.

A valuable track tactic when used correctly, absolutely.... a necessary track tactic needed for each and every turn? No.

I'll either start making a ton of mistakes, or I'll go way faster, and have no idea why.
That means it's time for some formal instruction... not just from the freebie trackdays instructors.
 
#33 ·
I personally try not to give the bars to much input as I don't have a steering dampener and hate the woobles that follow when to much tension is on the bars. Relaxed pressure if that makes sense and get used to the bike moving and grooving. A little slide is not something to get to worried about and when done right will help you carrie more speed. Plus I focus more on drive out as opposed to turn in. By focusing on getting a good drive out of the corner it naturally sets me up on the turn in.
I would also suggest doing some MX riding. It will aide your confidence greatly on the street bike.

p.s. I'm no racer and my advice is probably chit, but it works for me so maybe you can gain something from it.
 
#34 ·
Plus I focus more on drive out as opposed to turn in. By focusing on getting a good drive out of the corner it naturally sets me up on the turn in.
I would also suggest doing some MX riding. It will aide your confidence greatly on the street bike.

p.s. I'm no racer and my advice is probably chit, but it works for me so maybe you can gain something from it.
This is excellent advice. I stopped crapping myself on slides after I went dirt biking. A road racing slide is peanuts compared to the max sliding and jostling about the entire ride :p

A good drive is key... the fastest way out of a turn is to take your time going into it. A lot of people will overshoot the entrance, resulting in over trail braking or taking the turn wider than you should.

The sooner you're off the brakes, the sooner you can get on the gas.
 
#41 ·
Good read

Sent while riding my R6. o_O
 
#43 ·
Great info in here for sure! :fact

My issue, with my local track I frequent is really late apex's in about 80% of The turns, or double delayed apex's. When trying To spot The apex in nearly all of these turns, it's practically impossible To see before turn in. So I approach a turn, get my lower body set up, then enter The turn... Almost always too soon. Last time Out I did some coaching, braked later, and entered The turns even later then I ever had following my expert rider coach...

What do you all recommend To increase entry speed, and in turn, exit speed in these conditions? What's The best approach when you can't see The apex, because it's literally 2/3 or 3/4 of The way around The turn?
 
#45 ·
Is there an elevation change that blocks your view or anything? It might just be a matter of picking your head / vision up, looking further ahead, and turning your head more.

If you're not totally confident on your braking and turn-in points, that's going to suck up your focus and keep you from getting your vision up far enough from where you are at the moment. There's definitely some turns where I have an issue with this (turn 3 at Fontana, turn 2 at Streets of Willow). Basically anywhere that's a slow turn & greater than 90*, where if I'm looking as far ahead as I should, it means my turn in point is no longer in my field of vision when I'm actually turning in.

Some people have suggested just counting it off in your head after the braking marker, rather than relying on a visual marker for turn-in, or you can try to find a reference point on the inside of the turn for turn-in, that'll stay in your field of view once you look at the apex. I've yet to find something that works well for me - still figuring it out.
 
#47 ·
I apply a lot of what Bruce has said to many aspects of my life including riding.

"Don't think Feel."

"You are very much in control of the movement. By too much control therefore you are concerned about the execution. Forget about it just do it, when you ease the burden of your mind you just do it!"

"The less effort the faster and more powerful you will become."
:yes
 
#51 ·
Going into a turn, say right turn, I stay on the far left of my lane and then snap it to the right so ill have plenty of space and room for error if i need it. Its always helped me, and leaning correctly is big too
 
#52 ·
I can't say exactly for your particular set of turns what exactly to do, but here is a good starting point. Late apex turns require..............Late apexes. It sounds like you are trying to describe what is known as a decreasing radius turn? This is a turn that starts out pretty wide and gets tighter as you get into it. This type of turn is anything that turns more than 90 deg. There are also the killer turns known as double apex decreasing radius turns!!!!! These ones really suck.

In the case of your typical decreasing radius turn you will be shooting for a late apex. You will have to run into the turn pretty deep towards the outside of the turn and then carve to a point that is around the bend so to speak for the late apex. You are almost doing the apex further out in the turn, but later in it so that as you start to stand the bike up your almost shooting in the direction you want to go before you pass by the inner most part of the track.

Here are a couple images that may sum it up. As you can see the actual apex is in the middle of the track as opposed to the curbing:





These turns ^^^^^^^ are opposite in entry and exit but identical in nature. As you can see you acquire your largest lean angle and direction change towards the outside of the turn.

This image vvvvvvvvv shows how a normal double apex turn could be executed:



As can be seen you have an initial turn in point and the bulk of the turning again is way on the outside of the track.

Apex definition: The highest point; the vertex: the apex of a triangle; the apex of a hill. 2. The point of culmination.

Apex can be described differently depending on how you want to look at it. I describe an apex as being the point, or sharpest change in direction during a turn. This is also coincidentally the point at which the largest lean angle and slowest speed traveled will be and the line of the motorcycle can be opened up and more throttle applied. Others will describe it based on the turn itself and say that the apex is the point where you come closest to the curb during that turn. This point would in theory be the apex of your entry/exit on that turn. I prefer using the former where apex is described in simpler terms as being the point where you can start to open up the line of the bike and application of throttle can be increased at rider discretion.

The last image shows two apexes and they are apexes for that turn, but to me the true apex is at the second turn in point. However you want to look at it the turn does have two apexes. One at entry and one at exit ( the second turn in point ) . The reason I bring this point up is because depending on how you describe an apex will depend on how you formulate a plan to attack a turn.

Your view on what an apex is will ultimately determine how you factor where your apex will be. In your normal turn both definitions of an apex will be nearly the same. A turn with less than 90deg. directional change, will likely have an apex that will fit both definitions. It's the decreasing radius and double apex turns that have a grey area. You can in essence treat a double apex turn as one big turn and make only one real direction change. Conversely you can treat it as two turns and have two real apexes? Which one is faster is dependent upon the turn and the riders ability to read it and formulate a plan on execution.
 
#53 ·
This clears up some of my late apex issues.
 
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