We all know getting the bike turned in as quickly as possible is good. Allows you to turn in later, use less lean angle, spend less time at max lean angle, etc. etc.
I often hear riders that are much faster than myself talk about "snapping" the bike in, or "wacking" the bars to get the bike over quickly. I tend to make pretty slow, gradual steer inputs. The times that I consciously approach a corner thinking "ok, I'm going to try to turn in a little later, and just really huck it over quickly" it ends up REALLY upsetting the chassis.
So ... who's got some tips for me to get the bike turned quickly, but smoothly?
I suspect it's probably a body position / weighting thing where I'm fighting the bike trying to tip-in, but I feel like I'm doing everything I normally do, minus the trying to countersteer harder.
having the bike set is key. by set I mean on the front brakes pushing the front tire into the pavement with good weight transfer. Be planted in your body position, as in don't be moving off to the side while trying to turn in, or the bike gets upset. Have your bp done before you enter the corner when possible.
Smooth is part of goin fast. Push on the bar AND pull on the other. (pushing inside bar obviously) . doing both, push and pull, gets the bike on it's side faster than just pushing. I think "snap" it over may be too strong of a verb for the right way.. but as you stated, getting the bike on the side too slow kills lap times. You are correct. The faster you can get the bike over, the longer you can stay on the gas approaching the corner (twist of the wrist II "101")
Good downshifting is key too. Downshift too early and the revs get pulled up by the rear tire even if you blip the throttle, and the bike will back in more than ya need. Slamming 3-4 downshifts as fast as you can is not good either. Brake awhile, then start downshifting in a purposeful manner, but not so fast your left clutch hand is flying.
190 tires will help a bike turn in sometimes.. the extra rear grip keeps the bike in line at times better than a 180 when entering a corner. Especially big sweepers. But some corners may benefit a 180 tire. IT's all give and take. No perfect setup.
Hmm, I have a habit of getting my ass off the seat well before turn-in, but I don't move my head down and over until the bike starts tipping in.
Bad idea? Do you get your body completely set (one cheek off, knee out, head down outside of the windshield, towards the inside of the turn) all before you give the bars any input? If so - how do you finish braking / downshifting when you're in that position on the bike?
Hmm, I have a habit of getting my ass off the seat well before turn-in, but I don't move my head down and over until the bike starts tipping in.
Bad idea? Do you get your body completely set (one cheek off, knee out, head down outside of the windshield, towards the inside of the turn) all before you give the bars any input? If so - how do you finish braking / downshifting when you're in that position on the bike?
no perfect way, there are lots of styles that will work. just watch a race on tv! lots of ways people are goin real fast.
i do try to get my weight shifted a bit to the inside (1 cheek off the seat) and start looking through the corner, but i dont' hang my body off right away. i find still being upright with the body helps lean the bike over faster. Then i kinda move my body onto the tank .. as you wondered, i would guess it would be hard to brake if you are hanging off the inside before you start to tip in.. but just do what works, but watch good riders be it at the track or on TV. Emulate those riders till you find what you can do comfortably at a good pace.
I shortened my wheelbase back up, dropped 1mm on the forks, 2 mm on sag and the bike is more nosed down now, but cannot run wide, turns stupid sharp, wheelies are a snap of the wrist away now too. Same tires as before too. When I switch back to the pirelli's which are a few mm lower I should be able to fast turn in even later.
IMO, if you're off the bike and cant throw it down quick so your knee is on the ground, your bike needs adjustments. Tall bikes are hard and slow to tip. That plus a long wheelbase makes it turn slower. You wind up with a shitty super bike line at the longest end of the spectrum. Look at the guys bikes who are hauling ass, and you'll see lower front ride height, taller tails on the bike too, etc.
It's all a compromise. What tires and what's your setup like? Sag, ride height from stock, tire sizes, tire type, etc?
I know setup factors into it - but I'm really more interested in technique at the moment.
Like I said before - I've had guys describe it to me as 'snapping' the bike, or 'whacking the inside bar' to get the bike turned fast, and anytime I've tried doing anything I would describe that way, it unsettles the bike and makes me poop my pants a little.
The vibe I'm picking up from Greg is basically "Uh, yeah. Don't do that." I went looking through pictures & video a bit this afternoon and I think my issues are more likely due to not getting my head down enough and not looking far enough ahead more so that trying to push on the bars harder.
if you are going fast, nothing is done wicked quick..like no jamming the front brakes, no snapping the bike over.. it's a controlled snap for lack of a better description? yes, you have to get it on the edge of the tire as soon as you can, but as you are suspecting, harsh inputs unsettle the bike, and can have you run wide or waiting to get on the gas, missing apexes, etc.
Also of much importance, are turn in points, brake markers (either some permanent landmark or actual "4-3-2-1" markers"), etc.
Watch the AMA supersport class, or world supersport. They look SOOOO smooth, you would swear that with a few courses, a night at a Holiday Inn Express, and a Red-Bull you could run laps just like they do. Negatory. If you look close-er, you will see them occasionally pushing the front tire, and big rear slides from engine braking/rear brake (those are not so hard to see.. ). Absolute, on the limit, front tire pushing madness. The fastest 600cc riders have amazing feel for the front end, as it's all about keeping momentum up as the bikes are so equal. That means running into the corners crazy fast, but to not lowside 5 times a weekend, you have to be SMOOOOTTH. Smooth but deliberate with inputs.
if you are going fast, nothing is done wicked quick..like no jamming the front brakes, no snapping the bike over.. it's a controlled snap for lack of a better description? yes, you have to get it on the edge of the tire as soon as you can, but as you are suspecting, harsh inputs unsettle the bike, and can have you run wide or waiting to get on the gas, missing apexes, etc.
Also of much importance, are turn in points, brake markers (either some permanent landmark or actual "4-3-2-1" markers"), etc.
Watch the AMA supersport class, or world supersport. They look SOOOO smooth, you would swear that with a few courses, a night at a Holiday Inn Express, and a Red-Bull you could run laps just like they do. Negatory. If you look close-er, you will see them occasionally pushing the front tire, and big rear slides from engine braking/rear brake (those are not so hard to see.. ). Absolute, on the limit, front tire pushing madness. The fastest 600cc riders have amazing feel for the front end, as it's all about keeping momentum up as the bikes are so equal. That means running into the corners crazy fast, but to not lowside 5 times a weekend, you have to be SMOOOOTTH. Smooth but deliberate with inputs.
Yeah, I got to stand right at the edge of the track while Corey Alexander and James Rispoli backed it into various corners at the STAR school. Heh, or on the back of Jason Pridmore's bike. (No backing it in, but still running a hell of a pace.)
But those dudes look like they're just hanging out on the bike, taking it easy, setting up for afternoon tea.
I went looking through pictures & video a bit this afternoon and I think my issues are more likely due to not getting my head down enough and not looking far enough ahead more so that trying to push on the bars harder.
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