Advanced Rider Training, Why dont you take it? - Yamaha R6 Forum: YZF-R6 Forums
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post #1 of 34 (permalink) Old 10-15-2014, 06:41 AM Thread Starter
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Advanced Rider Training, Why dont you take it?

In my Free time I teach all types of motorsports at many levels, Dirt, Street, Track etc. I have been involved in Motorsports Education for 20 years and over the years I have noticed it has always been very difficult to get riders to participate or take any type of training once they learn how to ride, and many do not get training to learn how to ride in the first place either.

I know that some groups are more likely to search out rider training programs, advanced training programs and participate in training than others, ie. from my experience BMW riders tend to be represented in advanced riding classes way above the average and disproportionately in relation to the numbers of bikes sold and on the road. In some Classes they can account for almost 1/3 of the riders in advanced classes. (It does vary by region)

So my Question is to you the riders, Why do YOU not look for and participate in rider training, Advanced training etc. Why are you not trying to become a better rider and in turn a safer and more responsible rider? If you have taken a basic Rider course for a license or to learn why did you not follow up with more and advanced training?

I like to equate rider training to our formal education, completion of the Basic classes like the MSF BRC is about the same as graduating from the 3rd grade. You did not quite school after the third grade but most riders tend to be of the opinion that the 3rd grade level of rider education is enough. There is so much more out there that can make you a better rider, and in turn might actually even save your life, so what prevents you from wanting to be better? I know some of you think, "I am a good rider" if that is the case, good in comparison to who? Don't you want to be better? Even track day guys? If you are not mixing it up with Rossie you can be better, so again whats the deal?

I am looking for the honest opinions of those who have not taken training, maybe you thought about it but just never did? Again why? Advanced training?? There is so much out there what is holding you back?

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post #2 of 34 (permalink) Old 10-15-2014, 06:50 AM
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Re: Advanced Rider Training, Why dont you take it?

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Originally Posted by Outlaws Justice View Post
...I know some of you think, "I am a good rider" if that is the case, good in comparison to who? Don't you want to be better? Even track day guys? If you are not mixing it up with Rossie you can be better, so again whats the deal?

I am looking for the honest opinions of those who have not taken training, maybe you thought about it but just never did? Again why? Advanced training?? There is so much out there what is holding you back?
Its called Denial.
I for the life of me cant figure out why some of the street riders do what they do. Statements like "I ride hard & I need sticky tires" "ABS & traction control make me a better rider" or "No, I dont wear leathers...them things are hot as hell"
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I wont even mention basic mechanical issues like tires, chains or brakes.

I just introduced a life long friend & rider to the discipline of road racing. He crashed 4 times and rode close to 100 laps on an xr100...says he learned more in 1 day than 20+ yrs of riding. He rides ~25k/yr on his Kawi Connie.
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post #3 of 34 (permalink) Old 10-15-2014, 09:08 AM
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Re: Advanced Rider Training, Why dont you take it?

#1: MONEY

Training costs money. Ask the canyon guy why he doesn't do track days: "canyons are free, track days cost $150". Ask the track guy why he doesn't take a school: "track days are $150, schools are $500-2500+".

Combine cost with skepticism about value for the money, and you get people avoiding additional formal training. (that also explains why you see more BMW guys signing up -- says something about the demographic of BMW owners) I think it does say something that people who HAVE taken a school tend to want to take it AGAIN.
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post #4 of 34 (permalink) Old 10-15-2014, 09:31 AM
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Re: Advanced Rider Training, Why dont you take it?

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Advanced Rider Training, Why dont you take it?

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Originally Posted by rhouck View Post
#1: MONEY

Training costs money. Ask the canyon guy why he doesn't do track days: "canyons are free, track days cost $150". Ask the track guy why he doesn't take a school: "track days are $150, schools are $500-2500+".

Combine cost with skepticism about value for the money, and you get people avoiding additional formal training. (that also explains why you see more BMW guys signing up -- says something about the demographic of BMW owners) I think it does say something that people who HAVE taken a school tend to want to take it AGAIN.
Agreed. Nice post.

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post #5 of 34 (permalink) Old 10-15-2014, 10:35 AM
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Re: Advanced Rider Training, Why dont you take it?

Second money being a huge factor...

I can say for myself a few things from my experience. I recently did a track day and when I signed up they were sold out unless I paid for the intermediate school. I being on the lower end financially of most track guys didn't want to spend the $70 because the cost to benefit ratio seemed pretty low. Hindsight I'm glad I did it. Really only gained one thing from it but it completely changed my riding ability, confidence and gave me something more to work on(that being trail braking, amazing concept btw lol). My feeling at the time was the class time was going to be one of three things, 1. Higher than my education level so just practicing would do me equal good 2. Great and very valuable 3. Stuff I already knew and a complete waste of money. Simple probability told I only had a 1:3 chance it was worth my money and didn't want to spend the $70 that I could put towards another set of tires. That being said I will probably not take the same class again... They had great info especially specific to that track but It's not worth nearly $70 to do again. If I could sit in on the class for $10-20 and not get the guy following me I would probably take it a time or two more(didn't get a lot of input, maybe that was my bad).

It's hard to take a $1500 class when that would cover a bunch of track days where I would learn a lot(less than a school still I'm sure) but also have that many more weekends of fun at the track. I love learning and getting better but riding is more than being faster for me. My love for riding drives my desire to be faster so if being faster is going to cost me track days that becomes a very hard decision to make.

I have been hoping to do the Keith Code school and if all goes well plan to sign up this year. I read and watch tons of videos to become a smarter rider so I can take those concepts to the track. Unfortunately my all or nothing mentality is probably a detriment to me.


Sorry if I'm too long winded...

CLIFF NOTES:
In a nutshell it all comes down to $$$! Not just dollars but the other thing I could buy with those dollars(i.e. more track days!)

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post #6 of 34 (permalink) Old 10-15-2014, 11:34 AM
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Re: Advanced Rider Training, Why dont you take it?

So you gained a valuable skill that "completely changed your riding ability" and 70 bucks was too much?! Dude, $70 is basically nothing. You realize the Keith Code school you are talking about is $475 per day at The Ridge, right? Or $2,450 for a 2-day camp?

You are exactly the kind of rider that rhouck was talking about in his spot-on post. You don't recognize the value you can get from professional, advanced training. Yeah, you can take that $1500 and do a whole bunch of track days where you will just be riding around in circles working on the skills you already know about. Or maybe you'll stumble upon something new and have a breakthrough on your own; but maybe not.
Or you can take that $1500 and do levels 1-3 at Code's school and learn infinitely more in just three days than you would in three years of reading things online then trying them out at trackdays by yourself. That's the value for dollar we are talking about. Yeah, you can buy other stuff with that money but what are you buying that's more important that improving the rider?

And here's the thing about reading/watching things you find online: The way we learn new skills on a motorcycle is to hear it, understand it, do it, form a muscle memory.

So you are reading it online; you are hearing it. But are you understanding it? How do you know if you can't ask questions/get clarification from the person teaching it? Let's say you are understanding it. But are you doing it right? How do you know if the person teaching it isn't watching you?
See what I'm getting at? I read everything I find online too. But if you really want to make sure you are learning you need to have someone tell you, make sure you are understanding, make sure you are doing it right, then you form that muscle memory. That's what you get when you spend money at Total Control, California Superbike School or YCRS. That's what your money is getting you. And it's worth every penny.

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post #7 of 34 (permalink) Old 10-15-2014, 11:41 AM
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Re: Advanced Rider Training, Why dont you take it?

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Originally Posted by thedub View Post
So you gained a valuable skill that "completely changed your riding ability" and 70 bucks was too much?! Dude, $70 is basically nothing. You realize the Keith Code school you are talking about is $475 per day at The Ridge, right? Or $2,450 for a 2-day camp?
Hence my comment about my all or nothing mentality being a detriment. Never said $70 was too much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedub View Post
You are exactly the kind of rider that rhouck was talking about in his spot-on post. You don't recognize the value you can get from professional, advanced training. Yeah, you can take that $1500 and do a whole bunch of track days where you will just be riding around in circles working on the skills you already know about. Or maybe you'll stumble upon something new and have a breakthrough on your own; but maybe not.
Or you can take that $1500 and do levels 1-3 at Code's school and learn infinitely more in just three days than you would in three years of reading things online then trying them out at trackdays by yourself. That's the value for dollar we are talking about. Yeah, you can buy other stuff with that money but what are you buying that's more important that improving the rider?
You need to re-read my post... I am happy I took the class. Simply stating the reason in the past I didn't take it. I don't know I'd gain much more from taking THE SAME class AGAIN. I would be much more interested in an advanced class.

That being said If I did 14 track days instead of the class I might be better for it. Not everyone is going to benefit more from one weekend class vs 7 weekends at the track. I do however feel I am a level that it is time I do a class. If I had done the Keith Code school the beginning of this season it would not have been nearly as great a value as I would have been overwhelmed and not had the money to practice what I was taught at the track for lack of funds. It will be 100x more valuable to me this coming season due to my skill level going in. Also I want to back up everything I'm taught by doing follow up track days and this year I will be more likely to be able to do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedub View Post
And here's the thing about reading/watching things you find online: The way we learn new skills on a motorcycle is to hear it, understand it, do it, form a muscle memory.

So you are reading it online; you are hearing it. But are you understanding it? How do you know if you can't ask questions/get clarification from the person teaching it? Let's say you are understanding it. But are you doing it right? How do you know if the person teaching it isn't watching you?
See what I'm getting at? I read everything I find online too. But if you really want to make sure you are learning you need to have someone tell you, make sure you are understanding, make sure you are doing it right, then you form that muscle memory. That's what you get when you spend money at Total Control, California Superbike School or YCRS. That's what your money is getting you. And it's worth every penny.

I was simply trying to explain my love for learning and getting better. I consider myself a decent study and no matter how many classes I pay for I will always look for more info on the subject and see if there are things I can learn more from. I could have specified I didn't feel having a trainer follow me was helpful in this instance with this organization at this level. Having a trainer critique me is very valuable under the correct circumstances.

I think education is something we all should be investing in, including me! The question asked was "Why don't you take it?". Trying to help, that's all.

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post #8 of 34 (permalink) Old 10-15-2014, 11:44 AM
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Re: Advanced Rider Training, Why dont you take it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Outlaws Justice View Post
In my Free time I teach all types of motorsports at many levels, Dirt, Street, Track etc. I have been involved in Motorsports Education for 20 years and over the years I have noticed it has always been very difficult to get riders to participate or take any type of training once they learn how to ride, and many do not get training to learn how to ride in the first place either.

I know that some groups are more likely to search out rider training programs, advanced training programs and participate in training than others, ie. from my experience BMW riders tend to be represented in advanced riding classes way above the average and disproportionately in relation to the numbers of bikes sold and on the road. In some Classes they can account for almost 1/3 of the riders in advanced classes. (It does vary by region)

So my Question is to you the riders, Why do YOU not look for and participate in rider training, Advanced training etc. Why are you not trying to become a better rider and in turn a safer and more responsible rider? If you have taken a basic Rider course for a license or to learn why did you not follow up with more and advanced training?

I like to equate rider training to our formal education, completion of the Basic classes like the MSF BRC is about the same as graduating from the 3rd grade. You did not quite school after the third grade but most riders tend to be of the opinion that the 3rd grade level of rider education is enough. There is so much more out there that can make you a better rider, and in turn might actually even save your life, so what prevents you from wanting to be better? I know some of you think, "I am a good rider" if that is the case, good in comparison to who? Don't you want to be better? Even track day guys? If you are not mixing it up with Rossie you can be better, so again whats the deal?

I am looking for the honest opinions of those who have not taken training, maybe you thought about it but just never did? Again why? Advanced training?? There is so much out there what is holding you back?

So what exactly are you qualified in that makes you a better rider?

In comparison to whom?

Now that I got your attention...
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I've never taken an official riding school. I have taken just about every single kind of motorcycle class offered by the military at one point or another. I have been riding my entire life, and when I was forced to take the BRC, I laughed. It was a joke. Your analogy is spot on - it's about a 3rd grade level.

I've crashed half a dozen times or so on the track, and learned a lot the hard way. I agree with you, though - what is considered "fast"? I don't consider myself fast by any stretch of the imagination. Many think I'm fast as hell. I don't.

I know what's slowing me down - and to be honest, I just don't have the balls to do what's needed to get to AMA times. Less brakes. More throttle. More entry speed. Isn't that the same song and dance for everyone?

I keep saying I'll cough up money for a real race school when I plateau - but I haven't yet. I keep shaving time...a little at a time. I looked hard at YCRS. I'll be honest, I have a real hard time forking over $2500 for no promises that I'll be any faster. What are they going to teach me what I don't already know? I know dozens of people that have taken YCRS - and yet they are still slow as dog shit.

I understand, everyone's goals are different. Maybe some take schools because they want to learn how to ride a bike (Not trying to be funny, being honest). They want to learn body positioning, how to learn lines on the track, etc. As for myself, I just wanna go fast. Really, really fast. And if you're not going to get me any faster, I'm not interested. How can they "teach" you to man the fvuck up to do what's needed to get faster? That's my biggest question.

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I was going to continue to trash you rookie clowns but it's not even worth it. You're going to spend the rest of your days wasting away and possibility of aquiring talent because you're too ignorant and stubborn to realize you suck... but could be good. You all just keep proving my points.
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post #9 of 34 (permalink) Old 10-15-2014, 11:47 AM
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Re: Advanced Rider Training, Why dont you take it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedub View Post
So you gained a valuable skill that "completely changed your riding ability" and 70 bucks was too much?! Dude, $70 is basically nothing. You realize the Keith Code school you are talking about is $475 per day at The Ridge, right? Or $2,450 for a 2-day camp?

You are exactly the kind of rider that rhouck was talking about in his spot-on post. You don't recognize the value you can get from professional, advanced training. Yeah, you can take that $1500 and do a whole bunch of track days where you will just be riding around in circles working on the skills you already know about. Or maybe you'll stumble upon something new and have a breakthrough on your own; but maybe not.
Or you can take that $1500 and do levels 1-3 at Code's school and learn infinitely more in just three days than you would in three years of reading things online then trying them out at trackdays by yourself. That's the value for dollar we are talking about. Yeah, you can buy other stuff with that money but what are you buying that's more important that improving the rider?

And here's the thing about reading/watching things you find online: The way we learn new skills on a motorcycle is to hear it, understand it, do it, form a muscle memory.

So you are reading it online; you are hearing it. But are you understanding it? How do you know if you can't ask questions/get clarification from the person teaching it? Let's say you are understanding it. But are you doing it right? How do you know if the person teaching it isn't watching you?
See what I'm getting at? I read everything I find online too. But if you really want to make sure you are learning you need to have someone tell you, make sure you are understanding, make sure you are doing it right, then you form that muscle memory. That's what you get when you spend money at Total Control, California Superbike School or YCRS. That's what your money is getting you. And it's worth every penny.
My response above also works in a reply to your post.
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Originally Posted by bburgess05 View Post
I was going to continue to trash you rookie clowns but it's not even worth it. You're going to spend the rest of your days wasting away and possibility of aquiring talent because you're too ignorant and stubborn to realize you suck... but could be good. You all just keep proving my points.
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post #10 of 34 (permalink) Old 10-15-2014, 03:13 PM
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Re: Advanced Rider Training, Why dont you take it?

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I know what's slowing me down - and to be honest, I just don't have the balls to do what's needed to get to AMA times. Less brakes. More throttle. More entry speed. Isn't that the same song and dance for everyone?

... I'll be honest, I have a real hard time forking over $2500 for no promises that I'll be any faster. What are they going to teach me that I don't already know? I know dozens of people that have taken YCRS - and yet they are still slow as dog shit.

...I just wanna go fast. Really, really fast. And if you're not going to get me any faster, I'm not interested. How can they "teach" you to man the fvuck up to do what's needed to get faster? That's my biggest question.
I can answer your biggest question...

Actually, you kind of answered it yourself. "What are they going to teach me that I don't already know?" That's kind of the point, you don't know what you don't know!

The only difference between you and an AMA rider is comfort level on the bike (aka "balls"). But it isn't like they are all just kamikaze maniacs, they have the skills to run that pace without crashing. Where do they get those skills? YCRS isn't going to teach you to man the fvuck up, they are going to teach you the skills you need to be more comfortable on the bike at a faster speed. Then the less brakes/more throttle/more entry speed will come on it's own without the oh shit factor. You will have manned the fvuck up by default because now you have the skills to handle the increased speed without crashing and you are no longer scared to go through that corner faster.

Riders who crash a lot have a sense of bravery that exceeds their level of skill. The difference may be minute, they may not feel scared all the time, but they are obviously riding over their head and that's why they are crashing. What you want is for your skill to slightly exceed your bravery. That way you are always riding within your capabilities and not crashing. Then as the skill comes up the bravery comes with it. The answer to going faster isn't just to say 'screw it, I'm going to brake later than I ever have before and really rail into this corner.' The answer is to learn the proper technique.

I also know of a couple people (certainly not dozens) who have been to the school and are still pretty slow. But you know what? I'll bet they are faster than they were before the school. AND they aren't crashing.

Let me try to make another point, it's kind of a stretch but stay with me.
Let's take your line of thinking and apply it to another discipline. One where bravery isn't a factor: Baking.
Let's say you are trying to bake the worlds most delicious cake. You have a general idea of how a cake is made; flower, sugar, butter, etc. You keep mixing the ingredients together as best you can and the cake always tastes pretty good, but not the best.
Now one of the best cake makers in the world comes up to you and says "I know what you are doing wrong. I know why your cake isn't the most delicious. I know what you don't know and I can teach it to you."
And you say, "no thanks, I'm just going to keep on mixing the ingredients together on my own and hopefully it becomes the worlds best cake eventually."

To me, that's basically analogous to you saying "How can they "teach" you ... to do what's needed to get faster?"

I was actually just chatting with Ken Hill the other day via email and this is one of the things he said to me: "a successful lap time comes from proper technique....start chasing a lap time and it goes wrong quickly....."
It's not about you just having the balls to go faster, it's about being taught the proper technique to go faster, then your level of bravery rises with your skill.

Honestly, you should email Ken and ask him those same questions that I have quoted above. Tell him you are interested in the school but you aren't convinced it's worth it. If I have done a shitty job of convincing you (likely) I'll bet he does a better job.
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