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Lechon is da Bizness
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I finally got to try out my -1/+2 gearing (driven sprockets with DID ERV3 chain) at Auto Club Speedway yesterday. Had an awesome time. Best part was that I was able to drop 5 seconds from my previous best. Here's what I noticed from regearing,

Pros:
- Exiting corners :nocontrol

More of a nuisance than a Con:
- Exiting wider than before (especially on higher speed chicanes, i.e. turn 1-2 & 10-11)
- Gear limited on the front straight (kept trying to grab another gear, but, realized I was topped out)
- Healtech GiPro-X gear indicator was off gears (Installed w/ speedo drd & PCV. Tried swapping the indicator & speedo positions but it didn't seem to make a difference)

The wide exits is what bothered me more. When I installed the 520 kit, I decided to take out 4 links from my chain and move the axle further back instead of 6 links. The distance from the stock axle position was about 1 inch!

What adjustments can I make to be able to turn in faster? Lower the front? Install a different sprocket combination? I tried pushing harder on the bars, but, still couldn't exit like before. Maybe push harder? Thanks in advance.
 

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Meh
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9,250 Posts
Nice! We had a bunch of peeps out there on Saturday. What group were you running in? Level 2 was kind of a fcuk show for the first half of the day. Half the people out there were running beginner group times which made it... interesting trying to circulate at a pace 15 seconds faster. :nono

I am not a suspension guru, and my knowledge is based way more on reading shit than experience doing it and testing the results. That said... I believe there's a few ways to make the bike turn in faster:
- Lower the front
- Raise the rear
- Shorten the wheel base (shorten the chain, move the rear axle)

Is the problem really how fast the bike turns in though? If you're getting to the apex easily, and then it's only running wide once you get on the gas, you might be able to fix it by adding some compression to the shock.
 

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"The Dude abides .. "
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if you are a newer track rider, and you are toping out in 6th gear.. you need to go smaller rear or bigger front. At minimum put the stock front back on. There is MORE than ample power in any R6 to power out of corners if you are running good lines. That gearing is going to make opening the throttle more touchy, which will slow you down and lessen your lean angles. I'm not saying to go back to stock right away, but you -1/+2 is too much for the track you were on.
I know you went "faster" this time, but having been racing 10+ years, and instructing for 2/3's of that time, much of your gain was just from having come back to a track for the 2nd time. Every new rider drops gobs of time the 2nd time. think about it, if you continued on that pace of time drops, you would soon set the track record :) Going faster is cool, no doubt.. but i would wager you would have gone that much faster, or maybe even FASTER had you left the stock gearing on the bike, or at most +2 at the rear. You were likely giving up 3-5 mph on that straight away. Go fast in the fast sections, slow in the slow sections.. the fast sections are the easiest place to drop lap times.

as stated in post above mine, you could try pulling the forks through the triple clamps a bit. but without more info on your bike it's hard to just wing advice at you. What tires, did you use warmers, stock shock/forks? 180 or 190 tire ? how experienced are you? lots of things.. Axle position with a bike with stock suspension won't make a huge difference.. do you have the shim on top of the shock or did you remove it ?
 

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Lechon is da Bizness
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278 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Sick! If I had known other R6 member folks were out there I would have stopped by :)

I ran level 2 for the first time. Waayyy more fun than level 1 lol. What kinda times were you running? I hope I wasn't one of the guys in your way haha. My best was a 1:53 for the day. There definitely was some traffic in the morning.

I kept having a bit of trouble on the 2nd turn of the chicanes. The first turn would be ok, but, I couldn't get close to the 2nd apex of the chicane. I'd be in a lean longer than before upon exit which would make me get on the gas later.

I've debated taking another 2 links out but read some folks saying it felt a bit unstable. Since I moved the axle back, do you think raising the back might be better than lowering the front or the other way around? I'll try messing with the compression too, thanks Fallis.
 

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Meh
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9,250 Posts
Sick! If I had known other R6 member folks were out there I would have stopped by :)

I ran level 2 for the first time. Waayyy more fun than level 1 lol. What kinda times were you running? I hope I wasn't one of the guys in your way haha. My best was a 1:53 for the day. There definitely was some traffic in the morning.

I kept having a bit of trouble on the 2nd turn of the chicanes. The first turn would be ok, but, I couldn't get close to the 2nd apex of the chicane. I'd be in a lean longer than before upon exit which would make me get on the gas later.

I've debated taking another 2 links out but read some folks saying it felt a bit unstable. Since I moved the axle back, do you think raising the back might be better than lowering the front or the other way around? I'll try messing with the compression too, thanks Fallis.
I'm not super fast - I was running 1:51s. Was hoping to get down into the 40s, but all the traffic and the 2 hour break mid-day really messed with my mojo and I was trying to push way too hard once I finally got some clear track. :(

If you were doing 1:53s, you definitely weren't the problem. There were a bunch of people out there in L2 running like 2:08s. During the first two sessions I was passing 4-5 people at a time down the inside of T1 or T3 just trying to put one good lap together. It was just weird. I am much more accustomed to being the one getting buzzed. :laugh

Dunno what the benefit of raising rear vs. lowering the front is. If you don't have a shock that's ride-height adjustable, that kind of settles the issue though.
 

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Meh
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Oh, and keep an eye on the Forum Conventions / Events section, we usually post up in there to coordinate track days and manage to get 3-10 people together lately.
 

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Lechon is da Bizness
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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
if you are a newer track rider, and you are toping out in 6th gear.. you need to go smaller rear or bigger front. At minimum put the stock front back on. There is MORE than ample power in any R6 to power out of corners if you are running good lines. That gearing is going to make opening the throttle more touchy, which will slow you down and lessen your lean angles. I'm not saying to go back to stock right away, but you -1/+2 is too much for the track you were on.
I know you went "faster" this time, but having been racing 10+ years, and instructing for 2/3's of that time, much of your gain was just from having come back to a track for the 2nd time. Every new rider drops gobs of time the 2nd time. think about it, if you continued on that pace of time drops, you would soon set the track record :) Going faster is cool, no doubt.. but i would wager you would have gone that much faster, or maybe even FASTER had you left the stock gearing on the bike, or at most +2 at the rear. You were likely giving up 3-5 mph on that straight away. Go fast in the fast sections, slow in the slow sections.. the fast sections are the easiest place to drop lap times.

as stated in post above mine, you could try pulling the forks through the triple clamps a bit. but without more info on your bike it's hard to just wing advice at you. What tires, did you use warmers, stock shock/forks? 180 or 190 tire ? how experienced are you? lots of things.. Axle position with a bike with stock suspension won't make a huge difference.. do you have the shim on top of the shock or did you remove it ?
Hey Melk-Man, thanks for chiming in as well. I could your guys' expertise :)

I was running 180 Q2's, no warmers, stock forks and shock (w/o any modification to the shim). I believe this was my 4th time at that track. The last time I was on it was last month with stock gearing. Suspension was left the same from last month's TD to this past TD. I've done about 8 TD's and >16k canyon/commuting miles. I'm pretty comfortable on my bike; advanced beginner/noobie intermediate maybe?

My times history for this track is (if this helps any):
1st: ~2:01 (stock gearing)
2nd: ~2:00 (stock gearing)
3rd: ~1:58 (stock gearing)
4th: ~ 1:53-55 (-1/+2)

What would your opinion be towards a 0/+3 or similarly -1/0 gearing? Something feels different when I turn, just not too sure what it is or how to correct/compensate.

Oh, and keep an eye on the Forum Conventions / Events section, we usually post up in there to coordinate track days and manage to get 3-10 people together lately.
Will do man. It'd be nice to meet more forum members. Hope that guy who crashed in the morning is ok. When my buddy from A group didn't come back for a while, it got pretty unsettling. Luckily it wasn't him though, but, sucks nonetheless. 1:51s is awesome, I'll try to follow you next time if I see you there :)
 

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"The Dude abides .. "
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well there is no disputing your drop in times, and as you said, you have been there more than twice so my assumption may not have been 100% correct. But unless this is a very short course, with slow corners (other than a long enough straight to rev limit on) -1/+2 gearing isn't ideal. Especially with a 180 tire.. that is like running -1/+3 compared to a 190 rear (190 is bigger obviously, so i always add 1 tooth vs. 180 tire gearing).

maybe you had newer tires this time, perhaps the track was better, or you were just "feeling it". I just don't see a gearing change making that much difference on it's own. Especially from stock gearing that should work pretty well on a track.
Best thing to do, is try stuff. Changing a front sprocket is easy enough.. run one gearing in the morning, then switch it for the afternoon.. :)
 

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Lechon is da Bizness
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278 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
well there is no disputing your drop in times, and as you said, you have been there more than twice so my assumption may not have been 100% correct. But unless this is a very short course, with slow corners (other than a long enough straight to rev limit on) -1/+2 gearing isn't ideal. Especially with a 180 tire.. that is like running -1/+3 compared to a 190 rear (190 is bigger obviously, so i always add 1 tooth vs. 180 tire gearing).

maybe you had newer tires this time, perhaps the track was better, or you were just "feeling it". I just don't see a gearing change making that much difference on it's own. Especially from stock gearing that should work pretty well on a track.
Best thing to do, is try stuff. Changing a front sprocket is easy enough.. run one gearing in the morning, then switch it for the afternoon.. :)
You're probably right on the gearing alone not making the whole difference. I think the other factor was changing levels. The past 3 TD there I was running in the beginner group where they also include the 1st time TD riders in the same session. It was very rare where I could get an uninterrupted lap. Level 2 felt a lot more smoother.

The track is fairly short with the exception of the long straight on the oval portion. I'm going to start by dropping the front, not sure how much, but maybe 5mm to start? If it doesn't feel good, then, I may try 0/+3 and report back. Thanks Melk.
 

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"The Dude abides .. "
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You're probably right on the gearing alone not making the whole difference. I think the other factor was changing levels. The past 3 TD there I was running in the beginner group where they also include the 1st time TD riders in the same session. It was very rare where I could get an uninterrupted lap. Level 2 felt a lot more smoother.

The track is fairly short with the exception of the long straight on the oval portion. I'm going to start by dropping the front, not sure how much, but maybe 5mm to start? If it doesn't feel good, then, I may try 0/+3 and report back. Thanks Melk.
Chasing better riders is a sure fire way to get faster. Without a doubt, that would something to do with the better lap times. You learn from riders that are better, and you practice what you learn with riders that are the same and a little slower. Riders that are a LOT slower, are just in the way.. :)

i would agree that 5mm changes on the fork height at a time is ideal. 1 line. Before ya rush to do that though, check your sag. You wanna see about 35mm of sag from fully extended on a stand including pushing the rim down with your foot (top out spring) to you on the bike.. but measure that 2 times. once pulling up and let it settle, then once pushing down and let it settle, divide by 2 this accounts for stiction of the seals on the tubes (search measuring sag )
you may have a bunch of preload dialed in on the adjusters at the top of the forks. turning the adjusters OUT will lower the front of the bike as well. once you get the sag set, then make the 5mm ride height changes.
 

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Meh
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well there is no disputing your drop in times, and as you said, you have been there more than twice so my assumption may not have been 100% correct. But unless this is a very short course, with slow corners (other than a long enough straight to rev limit on) -1/+2 gearing isn't ideal. Especially with a 180 tire.. that is like running -1/+3 compared to a 190 rear (190 is bigger obviously, so i always add 1 tooth vs. 180 tire gearing).

maybe you had newer tires this time, perhaps the track was better, or you were just "feeling it". I just don't see a gearing change making that much difference on it's own. Especially from stock gearing that should work pretty well on a track.
Best thing to do, is try stuff. Changing a front sprocket is easy enough.. run one gearing in the morning, then switch it for the afternoon.. :)
FWIW, this is the AMA course at Fontanna, which used to be the first race after Daytona. We're a ways off the race pace there. Chris Ulrich was out there doing 1:36s 2-UP! Benny Solis was also out there testing and turning 1:32s. So... yeah. Practice is the biggest thing holding us back at this point. :)

First track day I ever did was at Fontana, and Jeremy Toye was out there getting some laps and turned a 1:26... :scared
 

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Pobrecitos
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FWIW, this is the AMA course at Fontanna, which used to be the first race after Daytona. We're a ways off the race pace there. Chris Ulrich was out there doing 1:36s 2-UP! Benny Solis was also out there testing and turning 1:32s. So... yeah. Practice is the biggest thing holding us back at this point. :)

First track day I ever did was at Fontana, and Jeremy Toye was out there getting some laps and turned a 1:26... :scared
FML, I missed that...:nono
 

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Registered
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well there is no disputing your drop in times, and as you said, you have been there more than twice so my assumption may not have been 100% correct. But unless this is a very short course, with slow corners (other than a long enough straight to rev limit on) -1/+2 gearing isn't ideal. Especially with a 180 tire.. that is like running -1/+3 compared to a 190 rear (190 is bigger obviously, so i always add 1 tooth vs. 180 tire gearing).

maybe you had newer tires this time, perhaps the track was better, or you were just "feeling it". I just don't see a gearing change making that much difference on it's own. Especially from stock gearing that should work pretty well on a track.
Best thing to do, is try stuff. Changing a front sprocket is easy enough.. run one gearing in the morning, then switch it for the afternoon.. :)

Point and shoot track. Not much/any flow.
 
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