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Discussion Starter #42
Okay so it was a bad lane change. This is among the top factors in most wrecks, even for those on four to eighteen wheels. I'm learning from your shared experience.


As riders we have to ride as though any and every potential wreck is our fault; because regardless of who is at fault, we loose, 100% of the time. (well, 99.9% anyway


One mistake I see that is common among riders, is their lane-shift. Instinctively we want to ride as far away from the car as possible. But when we're lane shifted away from the car, they can't see us. If they can't see us, they can't avoid us. Overwhelming majority of drivers want to avoid wrecks. We're more likely to be seen when riding closer to their mirror. That being said, I also pay special attention to rapid lane changers. When they change lanes, we may not have adequate time to get out of the way. Another tip, I spend nearly all of my riding time in either the far left, or far right lane. That way I only have to worry about being seen by one lane, instead of two. Know where peoples' blind spots are and try to spend as little time as is reasonable traversing them.
I think it's really important to step back and look at what we as the riders could have done to avoid the situation in the first place. Like Intuit;5738446 says, we need to ride as if any potential wreck is our fault because we lose! When I was a newer rider I had a lady suddenly change lanes into me, I steered quickly to the middle of the lane to avoid being hit but when I added a little bit of brake, the front skidded on the wet centre line and I was down in an instant and sliding through traffic. Thankfully the car behind me saw the whole thing unfold, followed the car that cut me off (she had NO IDEA what had just occurred behind her) and got the licence info. I was furious and completely blamed her, until one of my friends said that I should have seen it coming sooner. At first I was really miffed at his comment but then he explained that as riders we need to ASSUME that everyone is going to change lanes into us, or not see us and so we should expect sudden lane changes and not put ourselves in dangerous positions.

It comes down to having a slightly different kind of visual skills and patterns when riding in traffic. We need to try and see all the possibilities and treat it a bit like a video game...hahah avoid getting hit at all costs.

But seriously, there are some things we can do with our vision and with improving our visual skills that can help in this situation. What do you think they are?

(and just to clarify here, I'm not blaming the OP at all, just suggesting that sometimes there are things we can do as riders to help prevent crash/accident situations from happening).
 

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I’m 17 and I’ve been riding since I was 10. Just because I’ve been riding 7 years so I know the ropes but I don’t know much compared to a lot of other riders. And honestly if I didn’t have a hint of anxiety before every curve I would be riding way outside my limit. So being scared isn’t always the worst thing. 🤷*♂️
 

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Discussion Starter #44
I’m 17 and I’ve been riding since I was 10. Just because I’ve been riding 7 years so I know the ropes but I don’t know much compared to a lot of other riders. And honestly if I didn’t have a hint of anxiety before every curve I would be riding way outside my limit. So being scared isn’t always the worst thing. 🤷*♂️
Interesting point for sure. So you're saying that having a little hint of anxiety before each curve means that you are riding within your limit. Do you think you could get to a point where you didn't have anxiety before the corners but were still able to ride well within your limits or is that how you gauge how close you are to your limit?

Good conversation!
 

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Biggest cause of fear is "knowing" at that moment something unexpected is imminently going to go Horribly horribly horribly wrong delusion or not. Going through what others fear when you don't fear is Not fear.
 

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No i cant wheelie officer
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Interesting point for sure. So you're saying that having a little hint of anxiety before each curve means that you are riding within your limit. Do you think you could get to a point where you didn't have anxiety before the corners but were still able to ride well within your limits or is that how you gauge how close you are to your limit?

Good conversation!
I don’t know if I could but I know that it helps keeping me from showing off and trying to push my limits to much.
I kinda judge how close I am to my limit by my “ohh sh*t’ meter in my gut, and you don’t want to red line that one.
 

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Discussion Starter #49
I don’t know if I could but I know that it helps keeping me from showing off and trying to push my limits to much.
I kinda judge how close I am to my limit by my “ohh sh*t’ meter in my gut, and you don’t want to red line that one.
Hahaha good point. Red line the oh sh*t meter :grin: hahahah. So that makes a lot of sense, having a little bit of fear/anxiety keeps you within your limits.

I know that for me I can ride fast and safely within my limits without any fear or anxiety, but when I do feel a little bit scared I know that I've reached the limit of how I want to ride and that I'm close to the point of making mistakes. That for me is my gauge, my mental way of staying on track of my own limits. I like to be able to dial myself back BEFORE any mistakes are made and I can usually do that by keeping track of my anxiety levels....

For me it's a great way of progressively ramping up speed and staying away from making any big riding errors.

Are there any other ways you can tell that you are getting close to your riding limits? I ask this because I often have students that I notice are riding above their abilities and yet they don't seem to notice or get that they are on the very edge of traction and on the verge of crashing.
 

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Let's not to be too ignorant and fixate soley and "Only" upon what we specifically fear because there are many many other reasons that are equivalent in which we are unprepared for like dying by a flying rotor blade from a helicopter that crashed that someone recently died in a pickup as a passenger.

I mean, the secret could be to be ignorant because passing the state of fear w/o realizing is like getting a cut where you are scared of cuts and needles but because it happened unexpectedly there was no fear but to desensitize is in a way Safer as proper operation could proceed clean but the problem w/ that is a lot of "lower-level" ignorance impacts that seem like no big deal do A lot more harm than ever Expect so then the real fear would be the fear of fear itself.
 

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Discussion Starter #51
Let's not to be too ignorant and fixate soley and "Only" upon what we specifically fear because there are many many other reasons that are equivalent in which we are unprepared for like dying by a flying rotor blade from a helicopter that crashed that someone recently died in a pickup as a passenger.

I mean, the secret could be to be ignorant because passing the state of fear w/o realizing is like getting a cut where you are scared of cuts and needles but because it happened unexpectedly there was no fear but to desensitize is in a way Safer as proper operation could proceed clean but the problem w/ that is a lot of "lower-level" ignorance impacts that seem like no big deal do A lot more harm than ever Expect so then the real fear would be the fear of fear itself.
Hmmmm not sure I really understand anything in here that you are trying to say.....

You mention being ignorant to fear but from my perspective (as a coach who witnesses first hand many times students outriding their abilities and crashing), there are certain indications that you are riding too close to the edge.

Maybe it isn't only fear that is the indication but other factors. For me, if I make repeated mistakes then I know I'm riding close to my limit.

I guess I'm trying to push you guys to really think about how you ride and how you might be able to prevent any further crashes. It's all fine and dandy if you don't get hurt BUT, crashing is dangerous so if we can prevent it, then why not learn how?

:nerd:
 

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...................... might be able to prevent any further crashes. It's all fine and dandy if you don't get hurt BUT, crashing is dangerous so if we can prevent it, then why not learn how?
Fortunately most of the mistakes we make, do not result in an incident, let alone a crash. The key is not only to recognize that a mistake was made, but to create a planned course of behaviors that help prevent that mistake (or a variation of it) from being made again.



Year 'round rider, but this is a GREAT way to start off the season.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=motorcycle+crashes&qs=n&form=QBVLPG&sp=-1&pq=motorcycle+crashes&sc=8-18&sk=&cvid=B7D9E1BBEEB64FAF9C67E9A1255893A4


If you ever feel like doing stunts, just remember that this is how many R6 owners got the opportunity to acquire their bike(s) here. (buying them for cheap after a wreck) ENDLESS videos of stunts gone wrong. Don't do it.


We learn something from every crash.


Went down on a long patch of black ice setting out to work last week Monday morning. Mostly cosmetic damage. Most of the parts were ordered that night LoL. This will be a good time to check on some other maintenance items, like the state of the front cog (decent shape, but wouldn't hurt to replace), lube my cables (now lubed). I'll continue to procrastinate on the valve clearances. Not a scratch on me. The ice made it hard to get the bike back up.

If you happen to notice any ice, or wet painted lines, or wet sewer grates, or wet metal road plates, or wet railroad tracks and can't safely avoid it, stay off the front brake. Coast and avoid a change of direction as much as is allowable. If you must brake, only very lightly engage the rear.
 

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Hmmmm not sure I really understand anything in here that you are trying to say.....

You mention being ignorant to fear but from my perspective (as a coach who witnesses first hand many times students outriding their abilities and crashing), there are certain indications that you are riding too close to the edge.

Maybe it isn't only fear that is the indication but other factors. For me, if I make repeated mistakes then I know I'm riding close to my limit.

I guess I'm trying to push you guys to really think about how you ride and how you might be able to prevent any further crashes. It's all fine and dandy if you don't get hurt BUT, crashing is dangerous so if we can prevent it, then why not learn how?

:nerd:
You are a bad coach if you sent your students w/o enough understanding for them to crash. For me I like to progressively test the judgement of people and if they have any issues before proceeding with more advanced steps. I know a lot of coaching is where, people are on their own whether they know completely or not but I know it's possible for people to proceed safer but it could take a lot more time and effort to focus on individual students as there are too many to focus on and the budget isn't high enough. Repeating the same patterns with the proper look will develop the correct feel resulting in better performance rather than giving the ok when it's not. I mean, if they crash up to any degree I couldn't do anything about it. That's your job.

I've also went steps ahead and trained what to do when you crash such as tumbling properly which got me out uninjured on a 1st gear high-side rolling 100 feet. I could have sworn my clothes were torn but it was only my right glove knuckle that was ripped lol, some scratches on the helmet though but not too much. The only thing I didn't train was.. braking so hard you go over the bars as I wasn't paying attention on my e-bike at night. Almost hitting a parked pick-up truck w/ no one in it. Wrist injuries and head bleeding but they are healing. I had no helmet. It was unexpected as I was day dreaming because 20mph on the e-bike is like doing 6mph unassisted but you are here to there like nothing happened. Very smooth too.
 

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Hahaha good point. Red line the oh sh*t meter :grin: hahahah. So that makes a lot of sense, having a little bit of fear/anxiety keeps you within your limits.

I know that for me I can ride fast and safely within my limits without any fear or anxiety, but when I do feel a little bit scared I know that I've reached the limit of how I want to ride and that I'm close to the point of making mistakes. That for me is my gauge, my mental way of staying on track of my own limits. I like to be able to dial myself back BEFORE any mistakes are made and I can usually do that by keeping track of my anxiety levels....

For me it's a great way of progressively ramping up speed and staying away from making any big riding errors.

Are there any other ways you can tell that you are getting close to your riding limits? I ask this because I often have students that I notice are riding above their abilities and yet they don't seem to notice or get that they are on the very edge of traction and on the verge of crashing.
I don’t know any other to way to judge my limits other than my gut and if my rear set scrapes that another good way to realize you need a chill out. Any time I’ve gone into a sketchy corner and trusted my gut I went threw it with no problem. Back when I rode dirt bikes if I went and I didn’t trust myself I ate sh*t. Everyone has different limits and you have to trust yourself and what you know.
 

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You are a bad coach if you sent your students w/o enough understanding for them to crash. For me I like to progressively test the judgement of people and if they have any issues before proceeding with more advanced steps. I know a lot of coaching is where, people are on their own whether they know completely or not but I know it's possible for people to proceed safer but it could take a lot more time and effort to focus on individual students as there are too many to focus on and the budget isn't high enough. Repeating the same patterns with the proper look will develop the correct feel resulting in better performance rather than giving the ok when it's not. I mean, if they crash up to any degree I couldn't do anything about it. That's your job.

I've also went steps ahead and trained what to do when you crash such as tumbling properly which got me out uninjured on a 1st gear high-side rolling 100 feet. I could have sworn my clothes were torn but it was only my right glove knuckle that was ripped lol, some scratches on the helmet though but not too much. The only thing I didn't train was.. braking so hard you go over the bars as I wasn't paying attention on my e-bike at night. Almost hitting a parked pick-up truck w/ no one in it. Wrist injuries and head bleeding but they are healing. I had no helmet. It was unexpected as I was day dreaming because 20mph on the e-bike is like doing 6mph unassisted but you are here to there like nothing happened. Very smooth too.
Ant, I just have to ask this...Have you ever been on a bike at the track?
 

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Discussion Starter #56
The key is not only to recognize that a mistake was made, but to create a planned course of behaviors that help prevent that mistake (or a variation of it) from being made again.

We learn something from every crash.
Excellent. This is kind of what I was pushing for. Noticing mistakes is the first step to knowing that you are close to the edge, and then changing your riding behaviour to ensure that those mistakes don't happen again. It's surprising to me how many times students will ride around making mistake after mistake without any real awareness of it. I'll notice a mistake (student runs wide and nearly off track) I wait for a safe place to pass and maybe see another corner where they do the same thing, pull them in and ask them how their line was and they're like "it was totally fine, no biggy!" So having awareness of your own riding is paramount. Paying attention to what you are doing and noticing mistakes and then knowing what to do to prevent those mistakes from happening again.

And yes, you an learn something important from every crash, and hopefully from every near miss.

You are a bad coach if you sent your students w/o enough understanding for them to crash. For me I like to progressively test the judgement of people and if they have any issues before proceeding with more advanced steps. I know a lot of coaching is where, people are on their own whether they know completely or not but I know it's possible for people to proceed safer but it could take a lot more time and effort to focus on individual students as there are too many to focus on and the budget isn't high enough. Repeating the same patterns with the proper look will develop the correct feel resulting in better performance rather than giving the ok when it's not. I mean, if they crash up to any degree I couldn't do anything about it. That's your job.
Well I take offence at the suggestion that I'm a bad coach, which I very much am not. I'm an excellent riding coach and very proud of it, however there are just some times that you can't get to a student quick enough or they just do something stupid on track regardless of how many times you have warned them or pulled them in to decrease the gradient of learning or whatever. Sure, sometimes you can have a crappy coach chuck a student into something they aren't ready for or give them too much to learn at once but NOT AT OUR SCHOOL.

CSS is has a very very good training program that moves students through a series of riding techniques that build on one another and a very specific set of coaching methods that we all follow. Every coach is excellent at their job and we do our very best to keep every student upright- however, at the race track and with certain riders comes EGO and lack of awareness and no amount of incredible coaching can prevent all track related crashes. THat's up to the students AND the reason why I'm pressing people to take a good look at their own riding habits and methods for being able to tell whether they are riding close to the edge or not. I mean, you won't always have a riding coach behind you observing you riding ragged and pulling you in to prevent you from wadding up yourself and your bike right? It's up to you to know your limits.

That is the entire point of this thread. What causes YOU to feel fear. How do YOU know you are close to your limit. What can YOU do as a rider to prevent yourself from crashing. I'm passionate about riding skills and technique and in making people better riders. :nerd:
 

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Excellent. This is kind of what I was pushing for. Noticing mistakes is the first step to knowing that you are close to the edge, and then changing your riding behaviour to ensure that those mistakes don't happen again. It's surprising to me how many times students will ride around making mistake after mistake without any real awareness of it. I'll notice a mistake (student runs wide and nearly off track) I wait for a safe place to pass and maybe see another corner where they do the same thing, pull them in and ask them how their line was and they're like "it was totally fine, no biggy!" So having awareness of your own riding is paramount. Paying attention to what you are doing and noticing mistakes and then knowing what to do to prevent those mistakes from happening again.

And yes, you an learn something important from every crash, and hopefully from every near miss.



Well I take offence at the suggestion that I'm a bad coach, which I very much am not. I'm an excellent riding coach and very proud of it, however there are just some times that you can't get to a student quick enough or they just do something stupid on track regardless of how many times you have warned them or pulled them in to decrease the gradient of learning or whatever. Sure, sometimes you can have a crappy coach chuck a student into something they aren't ready for or give them too much to learn at once but NOT AT OUR SCHOOL.

CSS is has a very very good training program that moves students through a series of riding techniques that build on one another and a very specific set of coaching methods that we all follow. Every coach is excellent at their job and we do our very best to keep every student upright- however, at the race track and with certain riders comes EGO and lack of awareness and no amount of incredible coaching can prevent all track related crashes. THat's up to the students AND the reason why I'm pressing people to take a good look at their own riding habits and methods for being able to tell whether they are riding close to the edge or not. I mean, you won't always have a riding coach behind you observing you riding ragged and pulling you in to prevent you from wadding up yourself and your bike right? It's up to you to know your limits.

That is the entire point of this thread. What causes YOU to feel fear. How do YOU know you are close to your limit. What can YOU do as a rider to prevent yourself from crashing. I'm passionate about riding skills and technique and in making people better riders. :nerd:
yeah, certain things can matter such as having TCS always ON no matter what

If you don't lean too far, brake too late, and accelerate too heavy I think you can pretty much ride anything in the dry w/o issues. Sometimes people crash because they ride like a mountain bike. They don't counter-steer. Need to break those habits. Some grip too hard because of MTB habits too. Some people don't even lean into the turn as they are used to riding "crossed-up". For me, I got super scared when I first got into Sportbiking. Before I got it after passing MSF with the Honda Rebel. I wanted a Rebel but the R6 was better and a bit more. I didn't get it yet as I was waiting for the title. Then waiting for parts as it was sitting in his lot for a while unused. He's the first owner. I was researching Hard about counter-steering as I know on the bicycle I was cheating it. But a few days before getting it I was counter-steering the bike and noticing how it dips fast. I couldn't figure out way back how come the faster I go my steering is unpredictable for a second. Because I don't counter-steer. Well counter-steered properly day 1 and eventually worked on my foot and body positions. Took weeks to pretty much develop the proper feel but I never crashed under massive power. Did 140mph and leaned so damn far it was nuts. Luckily it was the summer as everything was hot. A lot of people wouldn't believe but when the bike tilted over because I twisted the bars too much not knowing the more you twist at a higher lean the faster it rolls over and the lighter I think, I was perfectly centerlined w/ the bottom and the top of the bike with my head. 100% I was greater than 45 degrees of lean lmao. I stayed full throttle doing 140+ and pulling. If I had a Superbike w/ no TCS I would have 100% went down hard. I had shorts and a t-shirt at night. After crashing braking hard into the asphalt with the e-bike, wrist injury and had head bleeding but the bike is fine at like 15-20mph, I realized speeding is really dangerous but it's Only bad when you go down. If you hit nothing but bugs and the wind, you are good. You can do 300mph but crashing at even 20mph can mean broken ribs and other things. People don't want to be told about certain things, they don't want to think about it, they will do it anyway but as long as the process is done correctly, it can be the same as watching the movies in a theater and having dinner at night. You wake up the next day like yesterday didn't matter instead of waking up like ICU people in critical condition. I'd say as much as possible should be done while In training because when things are Live it can sometimes be too late to know not enough understanding was known prior to it happening.

90 degree CNC valve stems and a TPMS sensor attached is the best way to tell you have enough pressure. Some people don't bother checking. Because the way the straight rubber valve are designed, when people put air because the spoke is in the way it can rip/herniate the stem after a while causing an air pressure loss. I was doing 140+ and was wondering why I couldn't turn. Was running wide to the SUV in the other lane but I applied brakes and I was turning tighter. I learned that technique from MotoGP 18 I think (People also argue with me saying video games do nothing, bs). Went home, next day front tire press 12psi!! Also tank grips makes it easier to stay on the bike allowing More control. It should be mandatory but in another group people were saying how it doesn't matter and I am dumb. Some say they don't need "steering dampers", they don't need TCS. We know how foolish that is to believe so. It's cool and all to avoid accidents that would have changed the course for us for the worse, think about things Years prior and regret unnecessarily but it's definitely A lot better than being a vegetable. People can think I am wrong, so what but I know how it is when things aren't done "right" or at least right enough.
 

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Hey...watch this
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So you were doing 140+ at night - on the street - on a bike with spokes - in shorts and a tee-shirt - running wide and almost hitting a SUV - with 12psi in your tire. You learned how to countersteer on a bicycle, by watching a MotoGP race, and video games. Your body position was perfectly centerlined with the bike and your head, and you were leaned over greater than 45 degrees.

At least you know how it is when things aren't done "right". Who is this other group of people who are saying you are dumb?

I think I have found my new biggest cause of fear.
 

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So you were doing 140+ at night - on the street - on a bike with spokes - in shorts and a tee-shirt - running wide and almost hitting a SUV - with 12psi in your tire. You learned how to countersteer on a bicycle, by watching a MotoGP race, and video games. Your body position was perfectly centerlined with the bike and your head, and you were leaned over greater than 45 degrees.

At least you know how it is when things aren't done "right". Who is this other group of people who are saying you are dumb?

I think I have found my new biggest cause of fear.
spokes? the standard yamaha rims

It was motorcycle universe or w/e it is in facebook. They've banned me because I kept stressing the importance of knowing certain things that Have saved me.
 

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Discussion Starter #60
I'd say as much as possible should be done while In training because when things are Live it can sometimes be too late to know not enough understanding was known prior to it happening.
Well, I have a hard time really understanding much of what you write in your posts but the above sentence I can grasp and agree with. Practice as much as possible, learn the fundamental skills in a safe environment because when you are suddenly required to make and emergency evasive maneuver or emergency brake to avoid something you want to make sure that you have trained those reactions into you. Doesn't do any good if you panic in the most critical moments. Practice makes perfect and the more you practice something the better chance that you will react correctly in that moment.

Here is an example. I took the California Superbike School as a student before I became a coach and did all four levels of rider training. I had the chance to ride the slide bike which teaches you what to do if the rear end starts to slide. (Prior to riding this I had had 3 or 4 nasty race high sides and no concept of exactly why or what had caused them). After learning how to slide the bike safely and NOT chop the throttle I felt more confident in my overall riding. THEN, I was in another race and got on the gas too hard exiting a corner, the rear end started to slide and instead of panicking and chopping the gas like I would have in the past, I kept the gas steady and calmly let off a little bit until the bike regained traction and off I went again. It was the coolest feeling to actually MAKE a riding decision that I knew prevented a serious crash. The more skills you can arm yourself with, the better your chances are that you will react correctly when needed.

Anyone else have any stories like this? How you learned an important riding skill that you used later on to prevent a crash or incident?
:grin:
 
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