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Out there riding..
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Okay all, I've been riding over 30 years. Yes, I'm old and slow, but I've got some habits that are very hard to break.

As far as clutchless shifting, you're only doing that UPSHIFTING, right? Having ridden so many bikes in my history I've been blipping the throttle on downshifts for so long I just do it out of habit. Slipper or not, you can count on me blipping!

Now I've been using clutchless upshifts for many years but was just watching some racing on TV and it almost sounds like several riders are not clutching on downshifts, which I figured was impossible. At the track, you're still using the clutch to downshift, right?

Just FYI, it's not the clutch that affects my lap times, it's my old slowness combined with 30 years of bad habits. :)
 

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Okay all, I've been riding over 30 years. Yes, I'm old and slow, but I've got some habits that are very hard to break.

As far as clutchless shifting, you're only doing that UPSHIFTING, right? Having ridden so many bikes in my history I've been blipping the throttle on downshifts for so long I just do it out of habit. Slipper or not, you can count on me blipping!

Now I've been using clutchless upshifts for many years but was just watching some racing on TV and it almost sounds like several riders are not clutching on downshifts, which I figured was impossible. At the track, you're still using the clutch to downshift, right?

Just FYI, it's not the clutch that affects my lap times, it's my old slowness combined with 30 years of bad habits. :)
You can't clutchless downshift. They are just that fast at it bro.

Someone posted a link to a computer that does do this, but it was for cars and not bikes yet.

One thing you could do is work on your body position to make you faster. Judging by your avatar, that's probably one of the problems. It's SO hard to break those habits tho. I do understand that for sure..

I've got my BP so aggressive now that I have to go well over double the posted limit on any road to even get the bike at half lean. It's truly amazing how much of a difference the right BP makes!
 

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I dont ride track, haven't spent the money on leathers yet, BUT....you can definitely clutchless down shift!!! I commute and do it all the time lol, it is not practical, but it can be done.
 

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Out there riding..
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How did I know you'd be the first to respond to this? :)

Thanks for the input. I know there are some serious BP issues going on, and it seems to be even more of an issue in right turns. As I mentioned, riding for this long and being very good at going quickly in spite of doing it the WRONG way, it's hard to overcome the things that have been going on for so long. Especially at the track where I just can't seem to find a comfortable BP no matter what I do.

As far as the clutchless downshifting, I thought for a second I was missing something considering how fast they were doing it so I just had to make sure that I wasn't having some kind of brain fart or anything. Those bastards are amazing.

Thanks for the input and I'm still hoping to catch you at NJMP one of these days so I can wrestle those CZ wheels from you! :)

Any chance you're heading over with NESBA on Sunday the 16th?
 

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Derp
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You can't clutchless downshift. They are just that fast at it bro.

Someone posted a link to a computer that does do this, but it was for cars and not bikes yet.

One thing you could do is work on your body position to make you faster. Judging by your avatar, that's probably one of the problems. It's SO hard to break those habits tho. I do understand that for sure..

I've got my BP so aggressive now that I have to go well over double the posted limit on any road to even get the bike at half lean. It's truly amazing how much of a difference the right BP makes!
:stupic:werd
 

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How did I know you'd be the first to respond to this? :)

Thanks for the input. I know there are some serious BP issues going on, and it seems to be even more of an issue in right turns. As I mentioned, riding for this long and being very good at going quickly in spite of doing it the WRONG way, it's hard to overcome the things that have been going on for so long. Especially at the track where I just can't seem to find a comfortable BP no matter what I do.

As far as the clutchless downshifting, I thought for a second I was missing something considering how fast they were doing it so I just had to make sure that I wasn't having some kind of brain fart or anything. Those bastards are amazing.

Thanks for the input and I'm still hoping to catch you at NJMP one of these days so I can wrestle those CZ wheels from you! :)

Any chance you're heading over with NESBA on Sunday the 16th?
You're not missing anything. There's noway to rev the motor and take the tension off the tranny simultaneously. There are certainly shifters that work in both directions, I personally have one, but it would be useless on clutchless downshifts. You can only get away with it on dirt, and even then you're abusing the trans horribly.

Anyway bro, we will be at NJMP on the 10th, and the 23rd. You should totally make it down bro!! We'll throw your bike on stands and do a body position clinic. We do it all the time!
 

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i'd rather use my clutch to better help control the rear end during corner entry. :fact
+1

Especially when you mess up and end up riding the clutch to the apex :laugh

Done that a few too many times!!
 

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zomething different
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You can't clutchless downshift.
o rearry? go watch twist of the wrist II. there's a little section on this towards the end. :secret not that i can do it but it can be done.

sidenote: anyone else get bummed out watching this? (seeing peter and all, rip)

i'd rather use my clutch to better help control the rear end during corner entry. :fact
f that, go in sideways...like a boss! :lmao

 

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You def can clutchless down shift. I dont do it, and I never will, but I am pretty sure Bayliss(if i remember correctly) was known for not using the clutch to down shift. But seeing as their bikes are gone over after every race weekend and redone, they dont have to worry about how hard they are on the bike.
 

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Meh
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There's no way to rev the motor and take the tension off the tranny simultaneously.
You can. It works the same way as a clutchless upshift in regards to load on the drivetrain.

When you're doing an upshift, you're closing the throttle and waiting for that brief moment when the drivetrain is in transition from accelerating to engine breaking, where there's no load on the transmission.

You do the same thing on the downshift by opening the throttle just enough to combat engine braking and get to that transition point. It's a lot harder to get the downshift right, because you've also got the brakes changing your speed at the same time, and if you open the throttle too much now you're fighting the braking forces and upsetting the bike.

I've done it on the street out of curiousity, but it's much harder to pull off than the upshift and it sounds much worse when you mess it up. I don't know how practical it is out on the track, but back in the R6MN days, I remember some dude who races posting about how at some particular track there was a left/right transition where you were slowing down the whole way through it and needed to drop a gear, and it was significantly faster to do it clutchlessly.
 

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In my later post I noted it can be done. I've done it on the dirt when seriously fatigued. There's noway any of us is pulling it off manually on an r6 without putting a real beating on the tranny and drivetrain tho.
 

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Flatshifter in the uk have been making and supplying a very popular and successful clutchless down shift system for nealy 10 years, used on race and road motorbikes bike engined kit and race cars, and virtually any race car with a sequential transmission it works by blipping the throttle using engine vacuum exactly the right amount at exactly the right time lots of videos and cutomer letters on there website many lap records & championshis won using them.
grez
grez
 

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Sorry to revive an old thread but I've always thought that ws better than starting a new one on a topic that's already been discussed.

I always shift clutchless up and down... Have for 3 years on this r6. I learned it primarily in a dump truck with a clutch brake that was overly agressive(making clutched shift much more difficult than clutchless.

I awaken this thread because I can't find any definitive proof it is bad for my bike. I find people telling me theories of why it's bad but I'd like more than a theory.

I don't know why people think it's so hard... I am not fast by any means but mastered the clutchless shifting quite easy on this bike. There is no feeling in the bike like anything is being jammed, in fact you can't tell the difference in smoothness of the shift clutch or not. The only way you can tell I'm doing it is a slight rev before a down shift. With the throttle of these bikes being such a short twist it makes it very easy to do safe(tiny blip). This has made me wonder what all the fuss is about quickshifters...

Anyways, maybe I should get video of it...

Anyone have any kind of real evidence that it is bad for my transmission?

*EDIT I use DO the clutch to start and stop lol EDIT*
 

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"The Dude abides .. "
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Sorry to revive an old thread but I've always thought that ws better than starting a new one on a topic that's already been discussed.

I always shift clutchless up and down... Have for 3 years on this r6. I learned it primarily in a dump truck with a clutch brake that was overly agressive(making clutched shift much more difficult than clutchless.

I awaken this thread because I can't find any definitive proof it is bad for my bike. I find people telling me theories of why it's bad but I'd like more than a theory.

I don't know why people think it's so hard... I am not fast by any means but mastered the clutchless shifting quite easy on this bike. There is no feeling in the bike like anything is being jammed, in fact you can't tell the difference in smoothness of the shift clutch or not. The only way you can tell I'm doing it is a slight rev before a down shift. With the throttle of these bikes being such a short twist it makes it very easy to do safe(tiny blip). This has made me wonder what all the fuss is about quickshifters...

Anyways, maybe I should get video of it...

Anyone have any kind of real evidence that it is bad for my transmission?

*EDIT I use DO the clutch to start and stop lol EDIT*
if you rode on the track a fair amount, you would quickly see the advantage of a quick shifter. Clutchless FULL THROTTLE upshifts ;) No need to do the slight roll off to unload the trans to make the upshift. Mid corner on a big sweeper that is opening up and you need to upshift ? no problem. Even mid throttle (you are not usually full throttle with a lot of lean.. at least for very long) the quick shifter interrupts the ignition/fuel to allow the up shift.

on downshifting without a clutch ? Again, at high rpm and riding hard on the track i don't think you would be able to accomplish this lap after lap dozens of times per session, without occasionally pulling on the shift lever so hard shift forks won't soon be bent. It's just hard to time it perfect.. I have heard of using TWO quick shifters. One pull, one push.. this way ignition/fuel is cut on both the upshift and downshift.. but i seriously do not know any racer or rider that downshifts with regularity without a clutch. The clutch lever and slipper allow you to modulate the clutch release to aid corner entry.. maybe the occasional corner once in a long while you may flick the bike from one side to the other where a well timed clutchless downshift works.

ON the road ? lower rpm, less hectic riding, it might be easier.

dirt bikes? different story. although the trans is basically the exact same (other than dirt bikes not using a slipper clutch unless supermoto) many dirt riders/racers clutchless shift up AND down a lot. I know i rarely use the clutch lever when woods riding or racing other than the occasional time i need a bit more rev for the current gear choice. 4 stroke dirt bikes just have lots of torque so no need to fan the clutch like 2 strokes.
 

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I'm going to have to try it on the track... Only done one track day and can't remember if I used the clutch or not. It's going to make a big difference not having as much engine braking too.

I'll dig up the video of my track day and see if I used the clutch, hopefully my left hand is visible.

Blipping is a muscle memory now, I do it whether I'm using the clutch or not... My first bike was a 600 katana and I regularly got the back end bouncing without having the slipper clutch. Did that a few times at the track on the 6 too I guess which surprised me because it was wet.
 

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I can see how a quickshifter would be nice but at my speed it would make such a small difference at this point, the r6 is so easy to clutchless upshift with the tinyest throttle off too...
 

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"The Dude abides .. "
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I can see how a quickshifter would be nice but at my speed it would make such a small difference at this point, the r6 is so easy to clutchless upshift with the tinyest throttle off too...
i raced my AM season without one in 2003. Didn't see the need. That was just about the time they were being used with more regularity even in club racing. (ccs/wera). My 1st expert season there was one on the very good 2003 r6 that i bought. Within about 3 laps, i could not understand how i rode without one.. :)
Once you have track ridden with a qs, you won't ever want to ride on the track without on again.

do you need one ? no way. Are they nice and will you always want one if you ever do use on for a day on a track bike ? oh yea..
 

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Reads the rulez
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i raced my AM season without one in 2003. Didn't see the need. That was just about the time they were being used with more regularity even in club racing. (ccs/wera). My 1st expert season there was one on the very good 2003 r6 that i bought. Within about 3 laps, i could not understand how i rode without one.. :)
Once you have track ridden with a qs, you won't ever want to ride on the track without on again.

do you need one ? no way. Are they nice and will you always want one if you ever do use on for a day on a track bike ? oh yea..
:yes:yes:yes
 
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