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Doing A Track Day In A/Advanced Group

11K views 46 replies 11 participants last post by  NuR6OldFart 
#1 · (Edited)
This is my experience stepping up to Expert/Group A from Intermediate/Group B.

Initial reaction - I was scared. Not scared as in fearful, but scared I would push too hard, make a mistake, and possibly having something go wrong. I think this was me being conservative as to not make a serious probably damaging mistake. However, after evaluating my short time riding in the advance group, I see this is exactly where I need to be. Let me explain.

First thing, I was doing a track day at a track I've never been to before - Buttonwillow to be exact. It's a GREAT track in my opinion. First I asked for a control rider to show me the race line. This was my first session, fresh tires, and the control rider was on slicks that just came off of the warmers. He pulled away from me after turn 4. I was okay with that. This track is so user friendly that I was able to pick up lines, breaking points, and apexes within the first two laps. And, knowing that I am at the slower pace of advanced, people were passing me - I was fine with that. I even got split in a corner being passed, one on the inside and one on the outside. That made me laugh, and I told myself, these are the guys I need to follow. That started me onto pushing my limits as that's what I needed.

My bike ended up having a mechanical failure on my second session, and that was no fun. It essentially ended my track day on my bike. This happened right around the time where I realized where everything was, and I was about to pick up my pace.

The day wasn't terrible as I got to ride a RSV4 for two sessions. I felt really comfortable on the bike, and I easily followed the race line, hit all of the apexes, entry and exit points, with some what great precision.

Going back by looking at the video from the two sessions on my bike and the experience from the RSV4, I realize how much more speed I can carry on my bike the next time. I also saw where I was hesitant in my riding on my R6. However, reflecting on the RSV4, I pushed wayyy harder then I did on my R6. I'm not sure why.

At present, me being at the slow end of advanced is exactly where I need to be to get to the next level. Make no mistake, riding at this level is not for the faint of the heart. They ride hard and serious out there; damn near never on the center of their tires.

I do, and I repeat, I DO, have to make some modifications to my bike to perform better. Things that I need to keep up the pace is as follows, full tune and exhaust, front and rear sprockets for better acceleration, get my suspension more in tune than it already is, and some new rear sets. The main thing I was lacking from an almost stock R6 was overall acceleration.

Lastly, you can damn near probably run 70% of Buttonwillow at WOT on an R6 in my opinion. There were so many times I let off the throttle, and there was no need to at all.
 
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#2 ·
*Smash that like button*
 
#4 ·
Thanks.

Glad you got to ride the Aprilia and get some more track time. Skip the tune and exhaust, though. It's a lot of money for a little bit of power, and it won't teach you anything or make you more comfortable. You will drop FAR more time just improving on your skills.

However if Anthony is still doing Bauce Racing ECU flashes, I would recommend getting that just for the throttle response alone. It's so much easier to be smooth when you crack the throttle back open compared to the stock settings.
I'm seriously thinking about that to get rid of the jerkiness of the stock throttle responsiveness. That, and I'm tired of having to turn the throttle so damn far to get to WOT. I think I need something like 1/6th turn or less.
 
#3 ·
Glad you got to ride the Aprilia and get some more track time. Skip the tune and exhaust, though. It's a lot of money for a little bit of power, and it won't teach you anything or make you more comfortable. You will drop FAR more time just improving on your skills.

However if Anthony is still doing Bauce Racing ECU flashes, I would recommend getting that just for the throttle response alone. It's so much easier to be smooth when you crack the throttle back open compared to the stock settings.
 
#5 ·
I definitely feel that riding with faster people will make you faster. Obviously, you have to be capable and comfortable to just keep up at the faster speeds (low end of the pack, at least) and doing it safely. Great job. I remember when I hopped into A group. I felt scared AF, guys were passing me like I was standing still. :laugh then you just get comfortable and feel it's actually much safer than the other groups. haha.

i've been off the track for sometime. I'll prob jump back into B-group if anything, depending on the track. I haven't raced or done a trackday for about two years. Been too long.
 
#6 ·
I agree with what you said whole heartedly. It definitely takes skill and comfort to ride in A group.

Another big thing is, depending on the track, most people running A group know the tracks well. That and many of them are on liter bikes. That's a recipe that makes even a top notch top 5% B group rider work his or her @ss off on a R6. The R6 is a great bike, but when stepping up to A group, be prepared to keep your throttle on go most if not all of the damn time. Oh, and bring an extra set of knee pucks too! :grin:
 
#7 ·
Looking at and studying the video, I'm highly impressed. I managed to stay with a group of 3 riders for an entire lap before my bike failed. I also gained about 1 second on them as well. I don't think they were pushing 100%, but still...
 
#8 ·
I remember when I got bumped as well. Humbling for sure.

But just to rain on your guys' parade, just remember that fast people don't do track days.
 
#9 ·
Actually, I've seen people who race (WERA, CCS, AMA) come to track days and use the sessions to practice. They ARE fast. Those Moto America guys ARE extremely fast.
 
#12 ·
Sure, there's the occasional exception where some really fast guys come out to play. Yesterday it was Josh Herrin that came out and rode with us. We've even had the Graves-Yamaha big-rig show up for practice time at a track day. But in general, High Side is right. In my experience the average A group guy on an average track day rides at a pace that would put you at the back half of a novice class club race. I usually only see the expert class front-runners on race days.
 
#13 ·
Again. You're riding with the wrong org then. We have expert guys every single a session and MA guys very very frequently. It all depends on who you are riding with. I see Ant, Paasch, CJ, Frankie, all the time.

"A" lap times vary from expert averages to a bit slower than some provisional novices. Again, more than 20% of our "a" grids are racers. Of them probably 20% are current WERA or CCS experts. Many with current or recent championships.

Don't make the very big mistake of lumping all track orgs together. Your experience in this is really an indication of the variation in how different orgs are structured.
 
#14 · (Edited)
Biggest thing to get used to, at least for me, was getting stuffed on the inside. Nothing quite as off putting as dragging knee and getting stood up, especially when you're not expecting it :surprise:

I also dont really agree with some of the commentary above. Generally I ride with ACE and TPM, and there are lots of fast riders. Probably around 10-15% of the guys in advanced/expert are CCS racers, some of whom are very quick. I dont know many names but almost every time I ride with ACE Ricky O'Hare (current CCS Atlantic leader) is on the track with me. Many other guys were recent winners or still pack leaders.
 
#20 ·
Btw, not at all afraid to admit that there's no way I can keep up with Ant, or many of he folks that very very routinely ride with us. Not for long. But I do enjoy being out there with them. I've absolutely picked up some time following them at several tracks that benefited me later.
 
#22 ·
No prob. Here's what I will say. Outside of either sprints or endurance, our typical "A" groups range in lap times at bolt between 28's and 40's on average. An awful lot are in the 30 to 34 range. And a handful are in the mid/high 20's. A fair amount will be in the low 40's. Admittedly it's very very rare that you'll see a lap in the low 20's (like 22's-24's) but every once in a while......
 
#23 ·
That's exactly why I pushed back on the notion that "fast guys don't do track days". We have a very strong relationship with the race orgs and compliment them - to the extent of partnering with them. We are partnered with YCRS. As a result we get an awful lot of their participation. They have some confidence that they're not going to be taken out by some weekend rookie who's riding over their head. And frankly, the majority of our CR's are current racers.
 
#28 ·
Poor Bill. Don't even know who I am. LOL. I'll fill you in at Pitt and you'll have a laugh.

But either way, my point still stands. Ok, so let me be a bit more technical about it. Fast guys don't TYPICALLY do track days. You average track day Advanced group guy isn't that fast and will typically get stomped by a fast Novice racer. You are trying to point out the 1%'ers in the group and that's just not an accurate gauge of the track day rider population.

Anything above 55's at Pitt isn't fast. Anything above 35's isn't fast at T-Bolt.

For the one west coast guy asking, my PB was 31 at Tbolt and 48's at PittRace. I ran 33's--mid 34's for an hour straight at the Jersey endurance. I still don't consider myself fast, because I figure anything I can do can't possibly be that difficult if I'm able to do it. Fast is sub 30's at TBolt and sub 45's at Pitt.

You keep talking about these expert riders that ride in advanced group. I'm one of them, 2017 being my 4th year as a WERA expert. Just because you got white plates doesn't mean you're fast either....me as an example.
 
#27 ·
I made a thread a while ago regarding tires, and in that thread, I said 'that' is the level I aspire to ride at.
 
#29 ·
I agree that over 55s at Pitt today isn't fast. At least until the chicane goes in. But you don't think there are low 50s being run all the time?? Not by the majority. But my point was that there are fast guys at most every track day. Yup - they're the top of the heap but they're there.

Who the heck are you? And are you going anywhere this weekend?
 
#30 ·
When I was at Thunderbolt last year, I was told that the MotoAmerica guys run high 20s low 30s in the rain at Thunderbolt.

There are a few things that I miss about being home back on the East Coast, but one thing that's for sure, no matter where I travel, there seems to to be fast racers everywhere.

I figure I'll keep doing track days until I step up to a pace where I can keep slicks at the optimal temperature, and then try to get my racers license. By that point, I should be able to follow some of the faster guys in Advance - possibly the top 10-20%. That's my mid-term goals.
 
#32 ·
Another thing. Is there a way to ensure that my level/pace of riding is requiring me to run slicks? How can I tell if my pace is able to keep slicks at the optimal temperature?
 
#36 ·
I agree with Duder, you will have no problem keeping race tires hot especially with warmers. There are some great non-slick options that are cheaper and last a bit longer than a standard slick. In my opinion the difference between a full slick and a DOT is negligible.

Dunlop GPA & Bridgestone R10/11 are good options and affordable.
 
#37 ·
I've found deals where I can grab a set between $325-$400 a set depending on sales and promotions. I typically pay about $20-$35 (hook up vs non hook up) per tire for mounting and balancing off the bike. I'm not sure of track vendor pricing, so I'll inquire when I go back.

I currently do not use warmers, but am actively saving for a set. Typically, I take my first session pretty light to start building heat in my tires for later sessions.

Also, I've heard people talk about GPAs, R10s/R11s, Metzler RRs, and of course Supercorsas. As of now, the V2s haven't let me down. I'm just curious if slicks will help with lap times, stability, confidence, etc.
 
#38 · (Edited)
As the old saying goes, the only way to find the edge is to go past it.

As I said above, you are going fast enough to use slicks, no question. Although I should add to ride in Advanced at my local track you have to be with 15 seconds of the lap record. Which is a big time gap. Slicks are more forgiving and offer more grip at an elevated pace. Not only that, they offer a more consistent and trustworthy feel for the whole session. Just have to pay attention to tire pressure. The down side, they will not last as long as a street tire.

Also, the mental aspect of knowing you are on race rubber vs. street tires is a big thing for me. I would not run in Advanced on street tires, no way. When I first started doing track days, I started on the Bridgestone RS10, which is a very sticky tire that is street legal. I still use it on my dedicated street bike (2016 GSX-S1000) and do occasional track days on it. But the problem with street tires that are trackable, like the SP, is riding in Advanced, they get greasy quickly and do no maintain the same feel throughout the whole session. After about 3-5 laps, they start sliding around a lot and down shifts cause the rear to hop around more and more.

However, if the bike is a dedicated street bike that you track occasionally, slicks makes things more complicated. Not that you cannot ride on the road with slicks, but you just can't ride like you would on the race track with them. For example, I talked to Steve at Dunlop Race Tire Services and he advised me that the GPA is the same compound and construction as the 200/55 and 180/60 slicks, but has siping cut into the tire to make it DOT legal.

Because you are using Pirelli's, the price of slicks will be rather reasonable to you. The 190/55-120/70 set of Dunlop N-tec slicks is $339. The 180/60-120/70 set is $388 (which is bi-directional (you can flip it if you track has more turns one way than the other)). Dunlop race tire services charges $30 for shipping. These are the slicks that MotoAmerica uses. Race Tire Service, DUNLOP RACING TIRES

I have used the Dunlop Slicks a lot and really really like them. I have used the 200/55 & 190/55 on my ZX10R and R1 quite a bit. I have used the 190/55 and 180/60 on my R6 as well. I use the Medium Plus rear and soft front and the front tire literally last forever. I had about 6 track days on the front before i changed it. I would get about 1.5-2 track days from a rear tire. But my closest track has 9 lefts and 4 rights. So I would always wear out the left side of the tire, which is why I love the 180/60 because you can flip it.

I have been looking for slicks that will last long, so I recently tried a set of R10's. So I ordered a set of R10's (which are on closeout now because of the R11) for $320 shipped from stick boy racing (http://stickboyracing.com). They were definitely different and handled well, but I don't think they will last any longer unfortunately. But they do have some R10's left, I just ordered another rear for this coming weekend track day.

The dunlop q4 may make sense for you as well, which are $324 per set.
Q4 ** NEW - Race Tire Service Inc

Also, I use the STG $249 tire warmers.

I could elaborate more, but hopefully some of this helps. @TurboBlew; anything to add?
 
#39 ·
Nice write-up El Duder. I would just add that the whole race/street tire differences at advanced group pace is dependent on the weather. On cool or cold days when it's cloudy and the track stays cold, a slower advanced rider can have trouble keeping heat in the tire. And street tires like the Q3 can hold up to mid/higher advanced pace the whole session. If it's really cold, I'd rather be on street tires. But that's the exception, generally just for those winter track days.
 
#40 · (Edited)
With everything being said, I think I've found the first set of slicks I want to try.

I'll do some thread searching to see if I indeed need dual temperature or single temperature warmers. Looking forward to getting better as time progresses.
 
#41 ·
A quality set of warmers like Chicken Hawk or Woodcraft are worth the initial expense. ~~$450ish.
Nickel & diming with a $200 set of warmers leaves ALOT to chance.
I think MotoD might have a cheaper set but compared to my woodcrafts... they look like shit after a few years of use. My buddy has some old Tyr Sox that still work well enough. Even those are over $300.
Then you need a decent gauge because pressures start to get more critical.
There is no magic bullet for tire life. You can use "street" tires if youre not running full pace laps to warm up & find your apexes, etc. Then when youre focused and ready later on... put on better tires.
Never blame the tire(s) for your inefficiency. And fast guys can turn fast laps on just about any tire.
 
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