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Meh
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Discussion Starter #1
We all know getting the bike turned in as quickly as possible is good. Allows you to turn in later, use less lean angle, spend less time at max lean angle, etc. etc.

I often hear riders that are much faster than myself talk about "snapping" the bike in, or "wacking" the bars to get the bike over quickly. I tend to make pretty slow, gradual steer inputs. The times that I consciously approach a corner thinking "ok, I'm going to try to turn in a little later, and just really huck it over quickly" it ends up REALLY upsetting the chassis.

So ... who's got some tips for me to get the bike turned quickly, but smoothly?

I suspect it's probably a body position / weighting thing where I'm fighting the bike trying to tip-in, but I feel like I'm doing everything I normally do, minus the trying to countersteer harder.
 

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"The Dude abides .. "
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4,719 Posts
having the bike set is key. by set I mean on the front brakes pushing the front tire into the pavement with good weight transfer. Be planted in your body position, as in don't be moving off to the side while trying to turn in, or the bike gets upset. Have your bp done before you enter the corner when possible.

Smooth is part of goin fast. Push on the bar AND pull on the other. (pushing inside bar obviously) . doing both, push and pull, gets the bike on it's side faster than just pushing. I think "snap" it over may be too strong of a verb for the right way.. but as you stated, getting the bike on the side too slow kills lap times. You are correct. The faster you can get the bike over, the longer you can stay on the gas approaching the corner (twist of the wrist II "101")

Good downshifting is key too. Downshift too early and the revs get pulled up by the rear tire even if you blip the throttle, and the bike will back in more than ya need. Slamming 3-4 downshifts as fast as you can is not good either. Brake awhile, then start downshifting in a purposeful manner, but not so fast your left clutch hand is flying.

190 tires will help a bike turn in sometimes.. the extra rear grip keeps the bike in line at times better than a 180 when entering a corner. Especially big sweepers. But some corners may benefit a 180 tire. IT's all give and take. No perfect setup.
 

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Meh
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Discussion Starter #4
Hmm, I have a habit of getting my ass off the seat well before turn-in, but I don't move my head down and over until the bike starts tipping in.

Bad idea? Do you get your body completely set (one cheek off, knee out, head down outside of the windshield, towards the inside of the turn) all before you give the bars any input? If so - how do you finish braking / downshifting when you're in that position on the bike?
 

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"The Dude abides .. "
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4,719 Posts
Hmm, I have a habit of getting my ass off the seat well before turn-in, but I don't move my head down and over until the bike starts tipping in.

Bad idea? Do you get your body completely set (one cheek off, knee out, head down outside of the windshield, towards the inside of the turn) all before you give the bars any input? If so - how do you finish braking / downshifting when you're in that position on the bike?
no perfect way, there are lots of styles that will work. just watch a race on tv! lots of ways people are goin real fast.
i do try to get my weight shifted a bit to the inside (1 cheek off the seat) and start looking through the corner, but i dont' hang my body off right away. i find still being upright with the body helps lean the bike over faster. Then i kinda move my body onto the tank .. as you wondered, i would guess it would be hard to brake if you are hanging off the inside before you start to tip in.. but just do what works, but watch good riders be it at the track or on TV. Emulate those riders till you find what you can do comfortably at a good pace.
 

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Parts Pimp
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26,461 Posts
I shortened my wheelbase back up, dropped 1mm on the forks, 2 mm on sag and the bike is more nosed down now, but cannot run wide, turns stupid sharp, wheelies are a snap of the wrist away now too. Same tires as before too. When I switch back to the pirelli's which are a few mm lower I should be able to fast turn in even later.

IMO, if you're off the bike and cant throw it down quick so your knee is on the ground, your bike needs adjustments. Tall bikes are hard and slow to tip. That plus a long wheelbase makes it turn slower. You wind up with a shitty super bike line at the longest end of the spectrum. Look at the guys bikes who are hauling ass, and you'll see lower front ride height, taller tails on the bike too, etc.

It's all a compromise. What tires and what's your setup like? Sag, ride height from stock, tire sizes, tire type, etc?
 

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Meh
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9,250 Posts
Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
I know setup factors into it - but I'm really more interested in technique at the moment.

Like I said before - I've had guys describe it to me as 'snapping' the bike, or 'whacking the inside bar' to get the bike turned fast, and anytime I've tried doing anything I would describe that way, it unsettles the bike and makes me poop my pants a little.

The vibe I'm picking up from Greg is basically "Uh, yeah. Don't do that." :laugh I went looking through pictures & video a bit this afternoon and I think my issues are more likely due to not getting my head down enough and not looking far enough ahead more so that trying to push on the bars harder.
 

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"The Dude abides .. "
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if you are going fast, nothing is done wicked quick..like no jamming the front brakes, no snapping the bike over.. it's a controlled snap for lack of a better description? yes, you have to get it on the edge of the tire as soon as you can, but as you are suspecting, harsh inputs unsettle the bike, and can have you run wide or waiting to get on the gas, missing apexes, etc.
Also of much importance, are turn in points, brake markers (either some permanent landmark or actual "4-3-2-1" markers"), etc.

Watch the AMA supersport class, or world supersport. They look SOOOO smooth, you would swear that with a few courses, a night at a Holiday Inn Express, and a Red-Bull you could run laps just like they do. Negatory. :) If you look close-er, you will see them occasionally pushing the front tire, and big rear slides from engine braking/rear brake (those are not so hard to see.. ). Absolute, on the limit, front tire pushing madness. The fastest 600cc riders have amazing feel for the front end, as it's all about keeping momentum up as the bikes are so equal. That means running into the corners crazy fast, but to not lowside 5 times a weekend, you have to be SMOOOOTTH. Smooth but deliberate with inputs.
 

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When in doubtThrottle out
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Smooth is fast. The more smooth you can be about turn in the faster you can make the bike do it.
 

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Meh
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Discussion Starter #10
if you are going fast, nothing is done wicked quick..like no jamming the front brakes, no snapping the bike over.. it's a controlled snap for lack of a better description? yes, you have to get it on the edge of the tire as soon as you can, but as you are suspecting, harsh inputs unsettle the bike, and can have you run wide or waiting to get on the gas, missing apexes, etc.
Also of much importance, are turn in points, brake markers (either some permanent landmark or actual "4-3-2-1" markers"), etc.

Watch the AMA supersport class, or world supersport. They look SOOOO smooth, you would swear that with a few courses, a night at a Holiday Inn Express, and a Red-Bull you could run laps just like they do. Negatory. :) If you look close-er, you will see them occasionally pushing the front tire, and big rear slides from engine braking/rear brake (those are not so hard to see.. ). Absolute, on the limit, front tire pushing madness. The fastest 600cc riders have amazing feel for the front end, as it's all about keeping momentum up as the bikes are so equal. That means running into the corners crazy fast, but to not lowside 5 times a weekend, you have to be SMOOOOTTH. Smooth but deliberate with inputs.
Yeah, I got to stand right at the edge of the track while Corey Alexander and James Rispoli backed it into various corners at the STAR school. Heh, or on the back of Jason Pridmore's bike. (No backing it in, but still running a hell of a pace.)

But those dudes look like they're just hanging out on the bike, taking it easy, setting up for afternoon tea.
 

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billdozer
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Smooth is fast. The more smooth you can be about turn in the faster you can make the bike do it.
exactly what i tell anyone when talking riding, i'm no pro, just finished my first full season riding at the track, still gaining experience and learning every day at the track but being smooth is what has allowed my riding to improve so much this year and pick up a faster pace nearly every TD.

Yeah, I got to stand right at the edge of the track while Corey Alexander and James Rispoli backed it into various corners at the STAR school. Heh, or on the back of Jason Pridmore's bike. (No backing it in, but still running a hell of a pace.)

But those dudes look like they're just hanging out on the bike, taking it easy, setting up for afternoon tea.
Yea they are so fast and graceful at the same time.
 

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Lol
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All the previous posts are very good tips, although I would say you'll only get better with experience and time. Your confidence builds up the more comfortable you get with your bike. Just don't push it too far if you're not sure what you're doing! :)
 

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We all know getting the bike turned in as quickly as possible is good. Allows you to turn in later, use less lean angle, spend less time at max lean angle, etc. etc.

I often hear riders that are much faster than myself talk about "snapping" the bike in, or "wacking" the bars to get the bike over quickly. I tend to make pretty slow, gradual steer inputs. The times that I consciously approach a corner thinking "ok, I'm going to try to turn in a little later, and just really huck it over quickly" it ends up REALLY upsetting the chassis.

So ... who's got some tips for me to get the bike turned quickly, but smoothly?

I suspect it's probably a body position / weighting thing where I'm fighting the bike trying to tip-in, but I feel like I'm doing everything I normally do, minus the trying to countersteer harder.
Good question. The simple answer here is that you just press the bar harder and the bike will turn in quicker.

But, you are obviously doing something that is making the bike feel unstable when you try to turn it quickly.

Are you pressing DOWN on the handlebar or FORWARD when you steer the bike? Are you pressing with smooth even (though quick) pressure or stabbing/jabbing at the bars?

How might any of the above effect your ability to get the bike turned quickly with the least amount of instability?

Misti

Hmm, I have a habit of getting my ass off the seat well before turn-in, but I don't move my head down and over until the bike starts tipping in.

Bad idea? Do you get your body completely set (one cheek off, knee out, head down outside of the windshield, towards the inside of the turn) all before you give the bars any input? If so - how do you finish braking / downshifting when you're in that position on the bike?
This is what I do. I move my butt of the seat and set up well before turn in but I keep squeezing the tank with both knees while braking and downshifting to keep myself from sliding forward into the tank and to keep excess weight off the bars. When I turn the bike I simply let my inside knee fall out and allow my upper body to go with the bike into the turn. I move my head forward and down farther only if I need too.

With both knees squeezing the tank it helps me keep my arms bent and nice and loose so I can quick turn the bike with as little effort/strength as possible.

Misti
 

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Meh
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9,250 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Good question. The simple answer here is that you just press the bar harder and the bike will turn in quicker.

But, you are obviously doing something that is making the bike feel unstable when you try to turn it quickly.

Are you pressing DOWN on the handlebar or FORWARD when you steer the bike? Are you pressing with smooth even (though quick) pressure or stabbing/jabbing at the bars?

How might any of the above effect your ability to get the bike turned quickly with the least amount of instability?

Misti
The times that the bike gets unsettled are when I go out with the goal of trying to get the bike turned as quickly as I can, and try to physically push/turn the bars. It definitely ends up feeling like I'm stabbing/jabbing at the bars.

If I go out and focus on just "being" at the apex faster and getting my eyes / body pointed at it ahead of time, and putting pressure on the bars is a subtler, almost secondary action, it seems to be much more effective.

The thing that made me start the thread in the first place, was me having issues with a specific off-camber turn at Spring Mountain Motorsports Ranch. I knew I could get through it faster - I was watching guys walk away from me through the section all day long - but anytime I tried to come through a little faster I'd end up running way wide and I'd totally miss the apex.

Talking with a faster guy who was pitted near me, he said literally "Oh yeah, you really need to 'snap' the bike over there." Any attempts at "snapping" the bike didn't get me any closer to the apex and the bike felt like it was fighting what I was trying to do.
 

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The times that the bike gets unsettled are when I go out with the goal of trying to get the bike turned as quickly as I can, and try to physically push/turn the bars. It definitely ends up feeling like I'm stabbing/jabbing at the bars.

If I go out and focus on just "being" at the apex faster and getting my eyes / body pointed at it ahead of time, and putting pressure on the bars is a subtler, almost secondary action, it seems to be much more effective.

The thing that made me start the thread in the first place, was me having issues with a specific off-camber turn at Spring Mountain Motorsports Ranch. I knew I could get through it faster - I was watching guys walk away from me through the section all day long - but anytime I tried to come through a little faster I'd end up running way wide and I'd totally miss the apex.

Talking with a faster guy who was pitted near me, he said literally "Oh yeah, you really need to 'snap' the bike over there." Any attempts at "snapping" the bike didn't get me any closer to the apex and the bike felt like it was fighting what I was trying to do.

OK, good explanation.

So here is another question for you based on your situation/experience above. In the corner that you were having issues with, the off camber turn at Spring Mountain Motorsports Ranch, do you have a good solid reference point for where you want to apex? What is it?

How might having a really good solid mid point reference point influence on how quickly/easily you get the bike turned and why?

Misti
 
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OK, good explanation.

So here is another question for you based on your situation/experience above. In the corner that you were having issues with, the off camber turn at Spring Mountain Motorsports Ranch, do you have a good solid reference point for where you want to apex? What is it?

How might having a really good solid mid point reference point influence on how quickly/easily you get the bike turned and why?

Misti
Are you THE Misti??? :poke :laugh
 

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crashing aint so bad
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You are certainly right about needing to change directions faster, but remember you will also need to have a later turn in point to take advantage of it. Man handling the bike is a quick way to get the thing out of shape and unhappy. Starting to move around while initiating the turn is also a sure way to unsettle the machine. I have also found in some cases where it seems like your pushing and pulling as hard as you can on the bars and there is no change in direction going on. It doesn't change direction because your actually fighting your self on the bars.

Try this.... Go into the turn at a safe pace that you know is ok. Wait a little longer to turn than normal ( not too much ) and then turn the bike quicker by pushing on the inside bar a little harder than normal. Don't try pulling with the other side quite yet. So if your turning left you push with your left hand and leave your right hand relaxed on the bar and visa versa for a right hand turn. If you do find that you feel as if no change in direction is being made even when you believe your putting input into the bars, try relaxing the grip oin the bar to the outside of the turn. This is a little more difficult for left turns since you need to hold the gas open, but it can be done. What you should find is that once you release your grip on the bar the bike should change direction more and with greater ease. This is because your no longer fighting yourself.

Once you get the hang of pushing the inside bar and you can change direction quicker, then work in pushing and pulling at the same time. You should find that it now becomes easier to make that same direction change, then you can work on yet again waiting longer to turn and turning quicker. Just don't go for the gusto until your certain you have things nailed down.
 

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You are certainly right about needing to change directions faster, but remember you will also need to have a later turn in point to take advantage of it. Man handling the bike is a quick way to get the thing out of shape and unhappy. Starting to move around while initiating the turn is also a sure way to unsettle the machine. I have also found in some cases where it seems like your pushing and pulling as hard as you can on the bars and there is no change in direction going on. It doesn't change direction because your actually fighting your self on the bars.

Try this.... Go into the turn at a safe pace that you know is ok. Wait a little longer to turn than normal ( not too much ) and then turn the bike quicker by pushing on the inside bar a little harder than normal. Don't try pulling with the other side quite yet. So if your turning left you push with your left hand and leave your right hand relaxed on the bar and visa versa for a right hand turn. If you do find that you feel as if no change in direction is being made even when you believe your putting input into the bars, try relaxing the grip oin the bar to the outside of the turn. This is a little more difficult for left turns since you need to hold the gas open, but it can be done. What you should find is that once you release your grip on the bar the bike should change direction more and with greater ease. This is because your no longer fighting yourself.

Once you get the hang of pushing the inside bar and you can change direction quicker, then work in pushing and pulling at the same time. You should find that it now becomes easier to make that same direction change, then you can work on yet again waiting longer to turn and turning quicker. Just don't go for the gusto until your certain you have things nailed down.
Yes you will need a later turn in point to take advantage of quick turning the bike but it is pretty hard to convince yourself to take a later turn in point unless you are really confident that you can get the bike turned.

As a rider gets more confident with their ability to turn the bike quicker they can then feel more comfortable waiting a little longer to turn the bike. Parking lot practice, track and street practice can really help with this.

Quick turning not only comes from the ability to press harder on the handlebars to physically get the bike to turn, but also from your visual skills as well. Unless you really know where you want the bike to be in a corner, or where you want to turn it for that matter, it is hard to convince your hands to press the bar harder. It's easy to tell someone to "just turn the bike quicker" but there is often a lot more involved in actually getting it done.

Hence the reason for my above question to the OP about reference points in the corner he is having difficulty with.

:) Misti
 
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