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Discussion Starter #1
Lets talk about how to's for practical track/riding situations... as if you're running through the game plan in your head before the race.

Coming off the straight into the first turn.

Watching the breaking markers (later the braking=the harder the tip in and faster on the gas)
knees gripping the tank to support your weight
braking and pulling the clutch in and blipping while dropping down 2-3 gears, easing of the clutch lever slowly
easing the hold on the brakes before tipping in
looking through the turn
hard on the gas at the apex.

When im tipping in whats going through my mind regarding BP is - Am i on the balls of feet? am i off the seat? Is my knee driving into the gas tank? Is my other knee out as a feeler? Is my forearm follwing the gas tank and is elbow pit area tucked around the tank? are my wrists relaxed and light on the bars? Am i ONLY looking through the turn?

Whats peoples thoughts on being off the seat when braking for say sharp turns so you're allready setup? Eliminate a movement of braking then sliding off seat...

Where is everyone shifting?

Im wrapping my head around the use of the quickshifter now...

lets get this thing going!!!
 

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pin it to win it
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i like to be in line while braking hard, or atleast have my upper body in line with the bike. Im ok with having my knee out and ass off the seat while braking tho.

I use the clutch up shifting and down. Pretty decent at blipping, I blip once per gear. I dont do 2-3 at a time
 

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Team STG Racing
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I don't brake hard like I used too. I brake lighter...for longer. In other words, i might brake at the same place as other people, but i brake lighter (which opens up passing opportunities) and i stay on the brakes till apex.

Then i get off the brakes and on the gas while dipping my head/upper body to take away lean angle as i straighten the bike up and increase throttle.
 

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pin it to win it
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that makes a lot of sense, ill have to give that a try
 

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Team STG Racing
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Be careful with that. It is something you have to work up to. When i say i am still on the brakes at apex, i mean like 1-2%...because im using 95-96% of my available traction for lean angle.

...and leaving myself 2-3% safety zone.

I don't have to tell you what happens when you go over 100%. :D
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I lowsided in a turn once cause i was trying to brake late and I think I wasn't off the brake enough when tipping in(I tip in hard naturally and combined with running out of real estate I tipped in even harder) and I tucked the front end.


How does ur method work exactly? Can ya walk me through it?


Sent from my Motorcycle iPhone app
 

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Team STG Racing
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I lowsided in a turn once cause i was trying to brake late and I think I wasn't off the brake enough when tipping in(I tip in hard naturally and combined with running out of real estate I tipped in even harder) and I tucked the front end.


How does ur method work exactly? Can ya walk me through it?


Sent from my Motorcycle iPhone app
To be honest, I had never trail braked before August of last year. I learned how to trail brake at the Speed Academy. They did drills that teach you exactly how much "1% braking" is and then we did trail braking drills. Had it not been for that instruction, I probably still wouldn't be doing it right.

But to answer your question, I arrive at my braking marker and i already have my butt scooted off the inside of the seat and my leg out and im on the brakes, bracing myself with my outside leg on tank (this isnt a situation where im braking HARD, in those situations, i leave both legs against the tank while im braking HARD, then stick my inside knee out right before i tip in).

As i tip in and start adding lean angle, i start reducing brake pressure in an amount relative to the amount of lean angle im adding so i dont use up all my available traction.

90% braking + 10% available lean angle
80% braking + 20% available lean angle

So on and so forth. Eventually i will arrive at apex with something like 95% lean angle and 1-2% braking. That little bit of braking is enough to alter the geometry and help the bike finish off the turn. Then from there, I start applying throttle.

Let me know if that doesnt answer your question and I will try to explain it better. :)
 

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candy red
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Awesome responce chaotic! So how I picture you doing it is something like this


Breaks going in:
Your here
(-)-----------------------------------------------------------------------(+)


Lean:
Your here
(-)-----------------------------------------------------------------------(+)


Than as your in the corner it gets to this point

Braking:
Now your here
(-)-----------------------------------------------------------------------(+)


Lean angle:
Now your here
(-)-----------------------------------------------------------------------(+)


Than when your coming out of the corner its like this

Breaking:
Your here
(-)-----------------------------------------------------------------------(+)



Lean angle
Your here
(-)-----------------------------------------------------------------------(+)


With give or take a little incase you need it.
 

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Team STG Racing
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I think your post was supposed to look something like this graph:

This is essentially how I work the brakes as im entering a turn (with the exception of the rear brake. Im not using it yet, Jason said we may incorperate that into my riding later in the year).

 

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vroom on a yamaha
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Pretty sweet thread you can tell the season is right around the corner. In for the knowledge, cant wait for luke to post that guy knows his shiz :fact
 

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Parts Pimp
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Less thinking and more riding is a good idea. Filling your head with too much shit to worry about when riding is gonna slow your reactions a ton.

Nobody needs to worry about trail braking. If you're trail braking you're going too slow. Work on corner entry speed a LOT before even considering trail braking unless it's a situation that specifically calls for it.

I doubt anyone in this thread other than chaotic is a serious racer and fast enough to worry about trail braking yet. Even Chaotic himself said he JUST started working on it after plenty of experience on the track.

A TON of beginner and intermediate riders insist on trail braking when it's not really needed. When you can carry enough speed throughout the turn to be in a full lean for its entirety, then trail braking can make you come in later and slightly faster.

If you're bike is turning better while performing the trail braking address your sag/preload up front. The average guy shouldn't need to be concerned with riding the front break for better turn in.
 

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Meh
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Less thinking and more riding is a good idea. Filling your head with too much shit to worry about when riding is gonna slow your reactions a ton.

Nobody needs to worry about trail braking. If you're trail braking you're going too slow. Work on corner entry speed a LOT before even considering trail braking unless it's a situation that specifically calls for it.

I doubt anyone in this thread other than chaotic is a serious racer and fast enough to worry about trail braking yet. Even Chaotic himself said he JUST started working on it after plenty of experience on the track.

A TON of beginner and intermediate riders insist on trail braking when it's not really needed. When you can carry enough speed throughout the turn to be in a full lean for its entirety, then trail braking can make you come in later and slightly faster.

If you're bike is turning better while performing the trail braking address your sag/preload up front. The average guy shouldn't need to be concerned with riding the front break for better turn in.
I wish someone told me that about half way through last season. There's one track in particular that's a lot of stop & go, where I could never hit my lines unless I stayed on the brakes all the way to the apex, and in retrospect it's probably somewhat due to not lowering the front end for the 70 series front tire.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Ant,

Thats sort of the point of this. Theres a lot of theories and shit out there to confuse the mass public.

I titled it going through the motions so that people can just read whats going through peoples head and learn little techniques and nuances.

This isn't about any one thing specifically.

one lesson learned last season was gripping the tank hard and staying close to the tank so that i could help absorb some force while hard breaking and working much suspense too much unnecessarily.

Be smooth on the brakes and clutch instead of grabbing a fist full.

Talk to everyone about the importance of entry speed. What to do to increase it. what to do if you're carrying too much speed.

How did you gain more confidence and learn the reality that if you do it right the bike can do more than we give it credit and certainly more than we think we are capable.
 

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I wish someone told me that about half way through last season. There's one track in particular that's a lot of stop & go, where I could never hit my lines unless I was stayed on the brakes all the way to the apex, and in retrospect it's probably somewhat due to not lowering the front end for the 70 series front tire.
More than likely! You were lowering the front by riding that brake. A LOT of people love this setup bro. Some people will gas and brake at the same time!

Ant,

Thats sort of the point of this. Theres a lot of theories and shit out there to confuse the mass public.

I titled it going through the motions so that people can just read whats going through peoples head and learn little techniques and nuances.

This isn't about any one thing specifically.

one lesson learned last season was gripping the tank hard and staying close to the tank so that i could help absorb some force while hard breaking and working much suspense too much unnecessarily.

Be smooth on the brakes and clutch instead of grabbing a fist full.

Talk to everyone about the importance of entry speed. What to do to increase it. what to do if you're carrying too much speed.

How did you gain more confidence and learn the reality that if you do it right the bike can do more than we give it credit and certainly more than we think we are capable.
:werd

I'm 100% with Chaotic on his posts. I just wanted to point out that's a very advanced technique and in most cases, unnecessary for the average guy. I had to force myself to stop brakin for no reason, cause I think I was in the habit of setting up the turn while braking or something.

The only thing that is going to make you have more confidence is a good setup and experience. Everyone says the bike can do this or that, but I don't place my faith in all that talk. My hardest thing to overcome was a front end that was too soft for me. I went this entire season spending a LOAD of time working on braking easier, softer, longer, and less abruptly. Granted, this was great practice and I worked on my form, just like you mention (grabbing tank, staying low, etc.). BUT, in the end, my bike couldn't do what some others would cause of the front end bottoming and diving.

Had I listened to others and just went for it I woulda crashed. 3 run offs at the end of the straight convinced me of this!!

Ideally, you wanna go incrementally faster on the track when you are comfortable. I've save dozens of near high sides by the end of this season. Almost tucked the front 3 times too. If I wasn't very very gradual in my progression of speed, I'd be broke or bikeless.. :laugh

Good reading in here
:yes

The info about %'s of brake vs lean, etc are priceless words of wisdom. :fact
 

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Team STG Racing
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Nobody needs to worry about trail braking. If you're trail braking you're going too slow. Work on corner entry speed a LOT before even considering trail braking unless it's a situation that specifically calls for it.
While we are pretty much on the same page, I have to disagree with this part. Whether somebody wants/needs to trail brake or not, they should at least know how to do it...for several reasons.

Most people are WOT, then brake...then release the brakes, turn in, apply maintenance throttle and spend a lot of time with a lot of lean angle. That is how I rode until August of last year. The problem is that from the time i got to my braking marker, till i was exiting the corner...i was handicapped. I spent way too much time at maximum lean angle. There were times I had my leg against my fairing...and was still dragging knee.

So when i tried to go faster...I would crash. Lean angle is finite...you will eventually run out of it, trust me. :(

When you can't trail brake, you are essentially handicapped and don't leave yourself an "out" or a tool to use when things don't go as planned.

What happens if you reach your normal braking marker carring much more speed because you got better drive out of the previous corner...or was in somebody's draft...or there is a tail wind instead of a head wind?

What if somebody else is occupying your normal line and you reach your brake marker on a tighter line?

On the street......

What if you come around a blind corner and there is a tire or some other debris in the road and you need to tighten your line? Obviously the easy answer is "don't ride fast on the street", but this isn't a dream world. :D

EVERYBODY stumbles upon trail braking at some point. Usually it is when they have an "oh shit" moment and HAVE to brake mid corner. Sometimes they might get lucky and get it right...sometimes they don't. We know what happens when you dont get it right.

Knowing what I know now, I can think back to several crashes I have had on the track and on the street (before I ever rode on the track) and if I would have the ability to control/modulate my speed while leaned over, I wouldn't have crashed...........and I would have less hardware in my body and more money in my pocket.

Trail braking is necessary for safety/speed (those two things coincide), but you need to know how to trail brake properly. There's two ways to do that, either figure it out on our own through trial and error (we all know what the error means), or learn how to do it in a controlled environment where you can be guided by professionals through the learning process.
 

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When I said if there was a situation that requires it is what i meant regarding oh shit moments, etc.

Even when I was deliberately not trail braking I would wind up on the inside and need it once in a while. I can't agree more that it's a valuable tool.

I just see so many newer riders (including myself) doing it out of habit or when it's unnecessary!
 
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