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Discussion Starter #1
So this past weekend I ran chuckwalla ccw and at t-14 I kept getting some weird feedback from my bike. Instead of being able to relax after turn in and let the bike cruise it's course I had to fight the bars to make the turn. The front end felt twitchy, as if it were sliding out a bit, and I would have to physically turn the bars to keep on line. Since I haven't been down yet I can only assume this was a sign that I was about to lowside. Any ideas as to what could be the issue. The rest of the track was fine and I had zero issues.
Basically I'm wondering if the description fits the feel of a bike about to let go? I would like to know in case it does let go I can relax and go with it instead of getting tense and fighting it.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Q2's 30/29. I'm still on factory settings suspension wise. I plan on getting the suspension dialed in over the winter break but if it were the suspension I would think I would have problems with the rest of the track as well.
 

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Q2's 30/29. I'm still on factory settings suspension wise. I plan on getting the suspension dialed in over the winter break but if it were the suspension I would think I would have problems with the rest of the track as well.
Maybe you are just really good on that turn and feel it there. I'll let others chime in. I have little faith in those tires. A few people I ride with complained of a similar sensation and in fact did lowside shortly afterwards in that spot.

So it could just be the front end getting ready to let go, but I can't be sure or make an accurate assumption. It's safe to say that not having the suspension setup ever isn't helping any.

Having to continuously provide input to the bars to hold a line is a sign of shitty suspension setup. :fact
 

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billdozer
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:stupic get your suspension setup and tires made for the track. Being prepared makes a huge difference at the track and it can keep you riding all day! the stock suspension setup isn't bad but its not intended for track use and is a bit soft and jumpy. After my first setup it was a noticeable difference in handling and feel.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Yeah I need to get the suspension setup but the guy I want to go to basically works out of his personal garage and as such I need to get stands before we can get started. Strange to hear this input about the Q2's as pretty much every review I have read has been positive. They held really well at Willow Springs. Chuck is strange though, instead of beading up rubber on the tires it seemed like I was cleaning my tires up. They almost look like there brand new as the tearing and bald up rubber from my last track day was cleaned off.
 

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Yeah I need to get the suspension setup but the guy I want to go to basically works out of his personal garage and as such I need to get stands before we can get started. Strange to hear this input about the Q2's as pretty much every review I have read has been positive. They held really well at Willow Springs. Chuck is strange though, instead of beading up rubber on the tires it seemed like I was cleaning my tires up. They almost look like there brand new as the tearing and bald up rubber from my last track day was cleaned off.
That's a GREAT sign!! It means you're smooth getting on the throttle, and your suspension is probably not all that far off in regards to rebound settings

I rode em a couple times and didn't take to them well. I am partial to a softer carcass tire in general.
 

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Meh
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Yeah I need to get the suspension setup but the guy I want to go to basically works out of his personal garage and as such I need to get stands before we can get started. Strange to hear this input about the Q2's as pretty much every review I have read has been positive. They held really well at Willow Springs. Chuck is strange though, instead of beading up rubber on the tires it seemed like I was cleaning my tires up. They almost look like there brand new as the tearing and bald up rubber from my last track day was cleaned off.
The surface at Chuck is only 2 years old, and much different compared to the way old pavement at Willow. That may be a factor in the tires cleaning up. I remember having similar wear the one time I was out there.

I rode Chuck clock-wise, so I don't know what T-14 is CCW, but it may be something as simple as the line your taking. I kept struggling with turn 5 at Big Willow. I kept randomly missing apexes and felt like I was fighting the bike to get it turned. After talking to a control rider I realized I was trying to turn in where the track was off-camber, and hence it took waaay more effort than expected to get the bike turned.
 

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Some great feedback. I think the OP has done a pretty good job of narrowing down the situation to help find a resolution. And like has already been mentioned, tire pressure and suspension can have A LOT to do with weird sensations - even isolated ones due to the nature of a particular turn.
Also as Fallis mentioned, it could simply be your approach considering the incident seems isolated to that corner.

I'm a huge fan of the Q2 and have had great luck with it. I had similar front end issues on Pures (the tires weren't a factor, just clarifying) on a turn that crests a hill at the apex - I was pushing a little wide. I adjusted my front ride height a few mm and it made all the difference in the world. My front end was sitting too high in relation to my rear - causing the front to essentially just "lay over" which made it push.

Good luck OP :cheers
 

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The Q2s r plenty good for regular TDs, some of us wont find the limit of those tires. Wat was the temp at the track that day.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
It was a great day temp wise. High 70's low 80's. Enough to sweat but not enough to seek shade.
 

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crashing aint so bad
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Sounds to me like you are just off the gas too long. This is no good. This places more pressure on the front tire, which could explain the twitchyness and the feeling of sliding. Getting very tense on the bars also does bad things. You aren't fighting the bike to turn. your fighting yourself. Being tense locks the arms up. So even though you are consciously trying to turn the bars you sub-consciously fighting the action by being so tense. Having too tight of a grip also gives a false impression of feedback. Your death grip on the bars simply means that you feel every little grain of sand on the road. This makes the feeling of sliding, or imminent death come on pre-maturely. Being scared you tense up for the inevitable and then last you make a noted choice to try and turn, but your so tense your fighting yourself and nothing really happens.

Sounds based on what you say about the tires that your fine there. Suspension is probably good too since the tire looks so good. Rebound is probably the one thing most related to feedback and feel. Fast rebound gives more feedback and can erode rider confidence. Too slow a rebound can cause packing up of suspension and makes tank slappers prevalent. Slower rebound reduces feel in the bars and can increase rider confidence. This is good to a degree, but too much of a good thing is still too much.

Being off the gas causes the front forks to compress, which in turn makes the bike turn quicker. This action also places more load on the front tire making it more likely to slide, push, or otherwise feel like it's trying to outrun the bike! Try getting on the gas just a little sooner and slowly accelerating through the turn. This will stabilize the bike sooner and should add confidence.

Another thing I try when I'm in situations like that is to let go of the left clip on. When I tensing up on the bars and I feel like I'm fighting myself, I just simply relax my grip completely on the left handle bar and I find that the bike will suddenly do what I want it to do. Try it the next time your in a turn and you feel tense. Letting your left hand relax it's grip off the bar, you should find that the bike will fall into the turn more. Hope this helps. worth a shot anyway. I would leave the suspension alone for now, since you exhibit no issues else where.
 

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Sounds to me like you are just off the gas too long. This is no good. This places more pressure on the front tire, which could explain the twitchyness and the feeling of sliding. Getting very tense on the bars also does bad things. You aren't fighting the bike to turn. your fighting yourself. Being tense locks the arms up. So even though you are consciously trying to turn the bars you sub-consciously fighting the action by being so tense. Having too tight of a grip also gives a false impression of feedback. Your death grip on the bars simply means that you feel every little grain of sand on the road. This makes the feeling of sliding, or imminent death come on pre-maturely. Being scared you tense up for the inevitable and then last you make a noted choice to try and turn, but your so tense your fighting yourself and nothing really happens.

Sounds based on what you say about the tires that your fine there. Suspension is probably good too since the tire looks so good. Rebound is probably the one thing most related to feedback and feel. Fast rebound gives more feedback and can erode rider confidence. Too slow a rebound can cause packing up of suspension and makes tank slappers prevalent. Slower rebound reduces feel in the bars and can increase rider confidence. This is good to a degree, but too much of a good thing is still too much.

Being off the gas causes the front forks to compress, which in turn makes the bike turn quicker. This action also places more load on the front tire making it more likely to slide, push, or otherwise feel like it's trying to outrun the bike! Try getting on the gas just a little sooner and slowly accelerating through the turn. This will stabilize the bike sooner and should add confidence.

Another thing I try when I'm in situations like that is to let go of the left clip on. When I tensing up on the bars and I feel like I'm fighting myself, I just simply relax my grip completely on the left handle bar and I find that the bike will suddenly do what I want it to do. Try it the next time your in a turn and you feel tense. Letting your left hand relax it's grip off the bar, you should find that the bike will fall into the turn more. Hope this helps. worth a shot anyway. I would leave the suspension alone for now, since you exhibit no issues else where.
What a triumphant return!!!
 

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So this past weekend I ran chuckwalla ccw and at t-14 I kept getting some weird feedback from my bike. Instead of being able to relax after turn in and let the bike cruise it's course I had to fight the bars to make the turn. The front end felt twitchy, as if it were sliding out a bit, and I would have to physically turn the bars to keep on line. Since I haven't been down yet I can only assume this was a sign that I was about to lowside. Any ideas as to what could be the issue. The rest of the track was fine and I had zero issues.
Basically I'm wondering if the description fits the feel of a bike about to let go? I would like to know in case it does let go I can relax and go with it instead of getting tense and fighting it.
You're not really saying where you are in the turn. Before the apex? On of off the gas? On or off the brakes?

Sounds like you might be having trouble finishing the turn, which means your front rebound is too high (front end coming up too soon), or the rear of the bike could be squatting.

Sound like either of those? Don't fight the bars ... it'll end badly!
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Hey Luke thanks for the input. I'm heading back to chuck this weekend to do the star school so hopefully I can get a better feel for the track. I think we are going to run cw though so might not have issues like before.
When I hang off I try to keep all the tension and weight locked in through my knee and the tank so that my arms are relaxed but I never really thought about to little throttle. I'll try to keep a mental note of it this time. Thanks again.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
You're not really saying where you are in the turn. Before the apex? On of off the gas? On or off the brakes?

Sounds like you might be having trouble finishing the turn, which means your front rebound is too high (front end coming up too soon), or the rear of the bike could be squatting.

Sound like either of those? Don't fight the bars ... it'll end badly!
Oh believe me I understand it'll end badly, hence the thread. I'm just trying to understand what was happening. If memory serves, I want to say that I had to start fighting the bars just after the apex. When I started to get into the throttle the bike started to drift out in a manner that wasn't going to allow me to finish the turn. I was in third probably around 8/9 grand and I would have to get out of the throttle and fight the bike to make the turn. No issues anywhere else on the track. Just this one turn the front kept wanting to drift out badly. People were catching and passing in this section so I know I wasnt hitting it to hot.
 

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If memory serves, I want to say that I had to start fighting the bars just after the apex. When I started to get into the throttle the bike started to drift out in a manner that wasn't going to allow me to finish the turn.
Yeah, that's good info. What you're describing is what I was getting at. Think of it as almost reverse trail-braking ...

- Going into a turn, when you trail brake you're controlling the compression of your forks, changing the geometry of your motorbike so that it turns in faster.

- The opposite effect, when your forks come UP from the compression stroke, the geometry is changing again, making your bike turn more slowly (not finish the turn)

So what you likely need to do is increase rebound in front (make the forks uncompress slower), or increase compression in the rear (so the back doesn't squat, which is sort of the same as the forks coming up).

If you've got a suspension guy at the track, spend the $40-$50 to work with him for the day. It'll be the best money you've ever spent.

Good riding tips posted above by others, too. Give them a try! Just remember, a day at the track is WAY more fun if you don't tip over, and there are guys a lot faster than you who rarely fall down. :D
 

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crashing aint so bad
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^^^^^^^^^

If that is truly the case then you are definitely off the gas too long. You are also apexing too early possibly? And what you describe as far as bike reaction is that rebound is too fast.

The apex of the turn should be a point where you can start opening your line up. This is turn dependent though and is only a general rule. As a very good rule you should be on the gas at, or before the apex of said turn. Your goal should be to turn later, apex later, get on the gas sooner and stand the bike up quicker. Not always possible, but you get the idea.

I am looking at the track map now and it seems to me that the turn you mention is turn 4 in the normal direction. This is a 180 deg. turn basically and has 2 apexes one at turn 5 entry and one at the end of turn 4 ( as if your looking at the map ). Turn 4 in CCW direction is a long sweeping turn and is difficult because the entry is coming from a turn already. I.E turn 5 into 4 is one really big turn. There is a small straight section out of 5. You would use this to run out to the edge of the track and turn in late to 4 and apex a little after the middle of the turn. Turns like this are tricky because you spend a lot of time leaned over and since it's flat, traction is only so good.

here is a shot:


It will be very difficult to carry a line that is on the inside of the turn next to the rumble strip. You will have little speed and exiting the turn is no fun either. If you can run out into turn 4 a little and turn it in and apex after the center of the turn you would be better off. A similar approach is used going the other direction too.

Here is a video of me at chukwalla in the normal direction. It was late afternoon and I was taking it pretty easy. You can see that in the turn 4 and 5 area I start sorta wide come in drift out and then back in again, but still make the turn one big turn.

vid:
hope this helps nail it down
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Alright guys, I'm a little embarrassed to be writing this, but the problem was all BP. I just did the star school this weekend at chuck and when I would try to up the pace, the front would get twitchy on every corner. After working with the staff and trying their BP technique, the bike was planted and traction was great. The bike stabilized and on the last session of the day I was flying around the track. I found myself actually lapping guys and cutting through traffic with ease. Where I would be afraid to pass peeps in the corners because I didn't think the bike would stick, I was marching on through. What a great feeling it was and what a great day on the track. Temps and conditions couldn't have been better.
Thanks for all your help and input. There is a great deal of info in this thread that will aid future riders greatly.
 

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When in doubtThrottle out
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star is a great program, did it in August at Heartland Park. Good to hear you got the issue resolved before it cost you alot of money and pain.
 
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