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no R6 for me :(
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Discussion Starter #1
How do I do it? I started racing this year and once I get into the top 7 or so I start getting left in the top end. Budget ain't big so no head work right now.

here's what's done to it

PC3 with generic fast by feracci map
GYT-R slip-on and I'm pretty sure stock header
ignition advance


what can be done in the interim to get the most bang for the buck besides u4.4 or MR12 and losing weight? Suspension and brakes are already built.
 

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"The Dude abides .. "
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4,719 Posts
U4.4 is gonna be the best bang for the buck, along with what was just posted.. good tune and a quickshifter (if you don't already have a qs).

the 2nd gen motor responds very well to good cam timing and thinner head gasket (mid layer of oem gasket can be removed if you plug hole in head for oil restriction-your builder will know what that is).. but this is much more money.
 

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no R6 for me :(
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59 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
melk-man I can pull the head off myself, any write-ups floating around on that? I found some racing gaskets but have no idea what thickness is safe. Quickshifter is coming soon.

geometry seems great and confirmed by thermosman (305mm rear, 18mm above triple front)
 

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"The Dude abides .. "
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melk-man I can pull the head off myself, any write-ups floating around on that? I found some racing gaskets but have no idea what thickness is safe. Quickshifter is coming soon.
you need to know how to measure squish.. and what is a safe clearance. .45mm is typical, and usually safe provided you rebuild fairly regular. few are gonna just post or give out cam timing numbers. again, this is where a reputable builder comes in handy. i will only entrust my motors to a few.. and prices are reasonable for what is being done.
if you can get good cam timing numbers, and know how to degree the cams properly (again, not for a novice builder) it will wake up the motor, along with the middle layer out (about a .15mm reduction) or get a .45mm gasket.
Obviously, you will want to dyno tune the bike afterward.

kit gaskets are expensive. some decide to mill the cylinders the amount they want off.. this way you always use a full OEM gasket on rebuilds, but it's like using an expensive thin gasket (without the $150+ cost for the gasket every time).
 

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no R6 for me :(
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59 Posts
Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
Im torn about putting too much into this bike versus getting a newer one. I can get a supersport head build with a mill job for $450 shipped back to me. but the motor has 30k miles on already and I'm not anywhere near comfortable doing the squish and cams. I know a good tuner (mark junge) but damn is it worth it for novice racing on this bike and my shoestring budget?

buddy of mine has a GSXR he's been doing AMA rounds with he wants to trade me plus $2000 at the end of the year. Thing is totally fresh and making 123hp with spec fuel. tricked out and mountains of spares. We just put the motor back in from the builder 3 weeks ago so I know what it is inside and out.

but spending that much will put a big dent in my racing budget.
 

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Meh
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9,250 Posts
Im torn about putting too much into this bike versus getting a newer one. I can get a supersport head build with a mill job for $450 shipped back to me. but the motor has 30k miles on already and I'm not anywhere near comfortable doing the squish and cams. I know a good tuner (mark junge) but damn is it worth it for novice racing on this bike and my shoestring budget?

buddy of mine has a GSXR he's been doing AMA rounds with he wants to trade me plus $2000 at the end of the year. Thing is totally fresh and making 123hp with spec fuel. tricked out and mountains of spares. We just put the motor back in from the builder 3 weeks ago so I know what it is inside and out.

but spending that much will put a big dent in my racing budget.
I've been meaning to start this exact thread. I've got an '05, and hoping to get my white plates at the end of the upcoming race season (in the CA desert, we run September - April cause Summer is too f'n hot).

I'm getting to the point where I'm losing a few bike lengths on the straights, or friends on 3rd gens are basically running up the back of me. ie, seems like a little more power would do me some good.

Basically, is it worth it putting money into a full supersport motor build, or should I just look into upgrading to a third gen? Cost-wise, I'm guessing the latter would probably make more sense, but I really love my 2nd gen and it'd be fun to hand out some spankings on old-ass hardware. :)
 

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"The Dude abides .. "
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4,719 Posts
Im torn about putting too much into this bike versus getting a newer one. I can get a supersport head build with a mill job for $450 shipped back to me. but the motor has 30k miles on already and I'm not anywhere near comfortable doing the squish and cams. I know a good tuner (mark junge) but damn is it worth it for novice racing on this bike and my shoestring budget?

buddy of mine has a GSXR he's been doing AMA rounds with he wants to trade me plus $2000 at the end of the year. Thing is totally fresh and making 123hp with spec fuel. tricked out and mountains of spares. We just put the motor back in from the builder 3 weeks ago so I know what it is inside and out.

but spending that much will put a big dent in my racing budget.
what year gsxr? and why would anyone with a bike that is as nice/good as you say, wanna trade for your bike plus $2000 if it is THAT good of a bike ?? i don't know what to tell you to do. I just don't see the logic of your friend giving you a bike that you say is way better unless he's being REALLY nice to you.. but is he ... ;)

30,000 miles is a lot of miles. DO NOT do any head work, don't mill the head, just cut the seats and install new valves (the valves on the 2nd gen are WAY CHEAPER cause they are steel, not TI). Just run a thinner gasket. Mark J. should be able to do this, but he is more of a gsxr builder, but i'm sure he done lots of yamaha's.
 

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"The Dude abides .. "
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i can't see selling a 2nd gen and getting an 08 or later 3rd gen without spending a LOT of extra money. There is NO SENSE getting an 06-07 r6. Trust me. I have raced the 03, 04, a pair of 05's, a pair of 07's, and a pair of 08's. The 07 was a DOG compared to the 05 or the 08, and even the 03 and 04 midrange. On the dyno my 07 WITH a supersport build made 15hp LESS than the 05 with supersport build , and barely any more top end. But on track, it would go faster at top speed due to better aerodynamics, and perhaps the lighter valves. But for nearly ALL tracks, the 2nd gen can be a VERY NICE BIKE, and for many riders, be an easier bike to go fast on. Expert level racers can usually make better time on a well sorted 3rd gen.. but it takes more skill to go fast on a 3rd gen than a 2nd gen.
 

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no R6 for me :(
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59 Posts
Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
it's an 06 gsxr 600 with a salvage VIN and mine has a clear title I know and have rode with the original owner and know every crash the things had. He owns a shop and can sell mine easily as a street bike and part out the race stuff. He wants to go back to racing SV's in the WERA pro thing next year. It's really not a fishy thing....hell I did all the paint work for it.

Thanks for the advice otherwise...that's what everyone has told me. I think I'll just get a QS, custom tune and some U4.4. If that don't get me up front it aint gonna be the bikes fault.

what about small shit like velocity stacks, aftermarket air filters and all that? worth it to mess with or just bling?
 

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"The Dude abides .. "
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4,719 Posts
it's an 06 gsxr 600 with a salvage VIN and mine has a clear title I know and have rode with the original owner and know every crash the things had. He owns a shop and can sell mine easily as a street bike and part out the race stuff. He wants to go back to racing SV's in the WERA pro thing next year. It's really not a fishy thing....hell I did all the paint work for it.

Thanks for the advice otherwise...that's what everyone has told me. I think I'll just get a QS, custom tune and some U4.4. If that don't get me up front it aint gonna be the bikes fault.

what about small shit like velocity stacks, aftermarket air filters and all that? worth it to mess with or just bling?
the stock v-stacks for the 03-05 make the best midrange.. what you need to get off the corners. Low v-stacks will just move the power up, you loose some mid, gain some up high. I wouldn't bother with that at this point. Same with the 03-05 air filter. Just wash it. We found after dynoing a BUNCH of different ones, NONE make any more power than the stock 03-05 foam filter. I even spend $200 for a YEC kit filter (yea , i was a bit pissed..lol!)

Map that thing for a good fuel (u4.4 or mr12.. both are oxygenated, but mr12 is way more $$ for not much more hp).
Consider sending me your fuel injectors PRIOR to mapping. www.proflowtech.com We can verify they are clean, spraying correctly, and are all flowing about the same after ultrasonic cleaning ($19per).
TIRES! no matter what bike you have, or how much HP you have, without buying a set of race rubber for the weekend, it really won't matter..
 

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Meh
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i can't see selling a 2nd gen and getting an 08 or later 3rd gen without spending a LOT of extra money. There is NO SENSE getting an 06-07 r6. Trust me. I have raced the 03, 04, a pair of 05's, a pair of 07's, and a pair of 08's. The 07 was a DOG compared to the 05 or the 08, and even the 03 and 04 midrange. On the dyno my 07 WITH a supersport build made 15hp LESS than the 05 with supersport build , and barely any more top end. But on track, it would go faster at top speed due to better aerodynamics, and perhaps the lighter valves. But for nearly ALL tracks, the 2nd gen can be a VERY NICE BIKE, and for many riders, be an easier bike to go fast on. Expert level racers can usually make better time on a well sorted 3rd gen.. but it takes more skill to go fast on a 3rd gen than a 2nd gen.
For reals? That seems nuts. I know the mid-range torque is undoubtedly better on the 2nd gens compared to the 06/07, but I thought the early 3rd gens still had significantly more top-end. At least in stock form, the 06/07 is supposed to make a good 7hp more according to Yamaha.

And really, the question I should be asking, is it possible to realistically compete for expert middleweight podiums on a well setup 2nd gen? For the club I'm in, there's no one running a 2nd gen in expert (hell, I might be the only one in amateur too), so it's been in the back of my mind that I'm inevitably going to have to upgrade at some point if I really want to hang.
 

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"The Dude abides .. "
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no BS. IF you have a well sorted SUPERSPORT BUILT 05r6, you will STOMP ALL OVER a STOCK 06-07 r6. Here is a dyno run done by my builder/tech advisor KWS motorsports done back in 2006. Same fuel, same exhaust, just a supersport build on the 05, and nothing done to the 06.. HUGE midrange advantage on a supersport 05 build.

red line= supersport built 05r6
blue line= stock 06r6


Yes, the 3rd gen does make more top end.. about 4-5HP. more if you do some more work to the 3rd gen on an 08 or later. but seriously, there are few tracks that you will be 100% throttle, and high rpm for long enough to make a difference. Road America, Daytona, 2 tracks that the 3rd gen is an advantage. But when you are on the side of the tire, and going from turn to turn, a good rider will STILL do very well on a 2nd gen R6.

 

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wat?
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But for nearly ALL tracks, the 2nd gen can be a VERY NICE BIKE, and for many riders, be an easier bike to go fast on. Expert level racers can usually make better time on a well sorted 3rd gen.. but it takes more skill to go fast on a 3rd gen than a 2nd gen.
As a non-expert rider, I can confirm this. I had some serious buyer's remorse when I sold my 03 and bought an 07... it screamed on the straights, but it was significantly less confidence-inspiring in the corners and a bitch (for my noobself) to keep high enough revs for good corner exit.

Even on my 09 now, I don't have the same feeling of complete confidence at true max lean angle that I did on my 03. Hopefully I'll get there some day.
 

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I can get a supersport head build with a mill job for $450 shipped back to me.
I'm interested in hearing more about this. Do you have contact info? Looking at getting some head work done in the off season.

Greg, I might FB message you about info on KWS as well.
 

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"The Dude abides .. "
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i would like to know what someone is doing to the 2nd gen head for $400-450 .. Milling is not needed (mill the cylinders if anything so you can use a full thickness OEM gasket). What else would that include? Seat cutting on a CNC machine (1micron tolerances) at KWS is around $275. With 30,000 miles, valve guides would need to be inspected/measured, and if you DID replace valve guides, you would HAVE to cut the valve seats (nothing is lined up perfect once you replace guides, valves won't seal). New valves are CHEAPER on the 2nd gen, as they are steel. Springs must be replaced every time.. but on any head, are cheap (unless you get YEC springs, not needed unless you run YEC cams).

I would not mill the head.. just run the thinner gasket, mid layer out brings it to .45 if you wanna save $100 or so vs. buying a YEC .45 gasket, but have the builder insert a carburetor main net in the oil passage that needs restricted now that the mid layer is out. The mid layer has a small oil restricter hole from the head to the cylinder.. with the mid layer out, the opening is too big. Main jet epoxied in solves this issue.
 

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FYI, I did not read most of the posts in this thread.

Not sure how expensive this stuff is anymore, but the 05 throttle body update is a big help, velocity stacks will help some (if they are legal for your class), a custom map for your fuel controller, a quick shifter would be nice but realistically wont help you that much.

You can't really squeeze much HP out without pulling the head off. U4.4 will give you about a 2-4% gain on HP if you get a custom map for it. U4.4 is so heavily oxygenated that you will run very lean without a custom map. I personally don't think race gas is worth it unless you're an expert or if you stand to win some substantial money. I have 117hp and 48'# torque on pump gas. Saves me a ton of money in the long run having just put the work into the bike and not into the gas.

If you're suspension is built already, make sure that shit is dialed in for the track you're on. I know your complaint is that you get pulled on in the straights, but if you can gain on your competition in the corners, you'll get into the straights sooner. Also, work on your lines, if you're going onto a substantial straight, try to square that bitch off and get as much drive as possible as soon as possible, try to get the bike upright so you can give it the beans. I pull on the inside bar as I exit a corner, which stands the bike upright, I hang off a little extra when I do this and you can be wide open sooner.

Good luck! My advice is free and worth every penny, give it a shot, and if it doesn't work for you, then forget it. If it does work, good for you!

PS, I assumed yours was an 03, if it is an 05, then never mind about the throttle body update.
 

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Meh
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U4.4 is gonna be the best bang for the buck, along with what was just posted.. good tune and a quickshifter (if you don't already have a qs).

the 2nd gen motor responds very well to good cam timing and thinner head gasket (mid layer of oem gasket can be removed if you plug hole in head for oil restriction-your builder will know what that is).. but this is much more money.
Can someone explain what exactly cam-timing means in this context? My understanding of it is making sure the cam position is in sync with the crank position to make sure that pistons and valves never get together on a hot date, and that's it's either the bike runs correctly, or parts are smashing together and blowing up your valve train.

Are you talking about swapping cams, or is there a way to tweak the cam timing less dramatically than adjusting it by what tooth the timing chain is on, such that you end up making more power?
 
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