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wat?
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Discussion Starter #1
Curious what system people use (if at all). I have a GPX Pro so it tracks hours and mileage for me. It's 100% track so easy enough.

I sometimes see posts where people talk about how many "seasons" they get out of their bike, but that's a pretty useless metric. Does anyone track their refresh intervals by race hours and, if so, what interval are you using? (and what are you doing after X amount of hours)
 

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Reads the rulez
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Would totally be dependent on build of the motor. Stock? Run her till she blows...or starts to use excessive oil, etc. If it's built, generally the builder of the engine will give you a window of when you should look at refreshing the motor.

If the engine builder cannot provide you with an estimate on when it should be rebuilt, that is definitely a red flag not to go with that guy...
 

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wat?
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Discussion Starter #3
Stock? Run her till she blows...or starts to use excessive oil, etc.
What about the coating wearing off the valves, etc.? Will that not happen before it blows? I thought one was supposed to do that early, because once the coating was gone things go south quick.
 

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Motosylum Racing #132
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Usually rings or valves go before the coating. My 81 BMW still has coated cylinders.
FWIW, a guy I know had about 40,000 miles (maybe half were racing and coaching) before his leakdown test showed something wrong in #3. Still ran and he has it as a back up motor until he can rebuild it.
 

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What about the coating wearing off the valves, etc.? Will that not happen before it blows? I thought one was supposed to do that early, because once the coating was gone things go south quick.
I've seen quite a number of 3rd gen R6's with 40k+ miles. What makes track riding wear the valves any faster than street riding? You might argue that a street engine doesn't see the RPM's that a track bike does. I'll give you that, but even if you cut the miles in half (assuming on average, the track engine average RPM is twice that of a street bike) that's still 20,000 miles of track riding.

I think the more relevant question would be: Who's ran a bone stock R6 motor long enough on the track to blow it up?
 

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When in doubtThrottle out
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I've seen quite a number of 3rd gen R6's with 40k+ miles. What makes track riding wear the valves any faster than street riding? You might argue that a street engine doesn't see the RPM's that a track bike does. I'll give you that, but even if you cut the miles in half (assuming on average, the track engine average RPM is twice that of a street bike) that's still 20,000 miles of track riding.

I think the more relevant question would be: Who's ran a bone stock R6 motor long enough on the track to blow it up?
Seen it on stock motors less than 10k miles.
 

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wat?
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Discussion Starter #7
Seen it on stock motors less than 10k miles.
This was my worry. I thought Melka said he changed his valves every other year (though again, I don't have much of an idea how much a "year" is for him.... not sure how often he goes outside of the CCS season). Maybe I am remembering wrong and it wasn't that often.

Everything else (maintenance not included, e.g., valve adjustments and oil changes) seems to be a "just wait until it goes" thing, but the valve issue was my primary concern. Especially since it sounds like something you have to do BEFORE it wears off, or else things go downhill fast.
 

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"The Dude abides .. "
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no way does a street bike see the wear/abuse a fast rider puts on a track/race only engine. The valves are a weak link in a 3rd gen r6 motor, especially if you run mr12 or some other race fuels. The exhaust valves specifically get pitted on the seat face, and once the coating on these TI valves is compromised, they are not long for this world. exst. valves must be replaced on a race engine using race fuel every season or 2..

a leak down test is the first thing i would do. more than 5% leak down? not too bad.. but as a front running expert, i don't wanna see more tan 5-6%, and i wanna see consistency across all 4 cylinders. 10% ? most experts will rebuild but for most track day riders or AM racers, not a huge deal.. one friend of mine had 25 % leak down on his engine (1st year expert and had 3 seasons on his engine) and it still ran decent, but obviously well down on power. My guy did the rebuild for him. Rings, bearings, sent the head to KWS for seat cutting, all new valves and springs.

road use and pump gas.. not nearly the problems with valves that you will see with a race engine regularly 9000rpm or higher, and using race fuel. Race fuel leaves a horrible reside that as stated before, pits the exst valve faces..

do a compression test (min spec for a STOCK motor is 185psi, with less than 10psi variation from cyl to cyl).. comp test needs done with the butterfly plates on the throttle bodies held open somewhat, and all spark plugs out (so it cranks faster) and a good and charged battery. Slow crank, and/or butterflys closed, will show low psi !
a leak down test is better.. but need a mechanic with the leak down tool and know-how to do it. This test indicates not only the amount of leak-down, but WHERE it's coming from. If you hear the hissing air from throttle bodies it's intake valve leak, at the muffler it's leaking past exhaust valves, if from the ignition cover area (and have to have off to move engine to TDC on each cyl) it's leaking past the rings..

hard core racing, every season should do a build. (rings, pistons, bearings, valves, springs, seats cut, hone cyl). every couple sesasons for AM racing to be safe..

ALSO! i don't see any reason why a "built" motor should be rebuilt any more often than a typical race engine. A good superbike build, with carrillo rods, won't need rebuilt any more often than a typical supersport build (just thinner head gasket and cam timing).
 

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Reads the rulez
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no way does a street bike see the wear/abuse a fast rider puts on a track/race only engine. The valves are a weak link in a 3rd gen r6 motor, especially if you run mr12 or some other race fuels. The exhaust valves specifically get pitted on the seat face, and once the coating on these TI valves is compromised, they are not long for this world. exst. valves must be replaced on a race engine using race fuel every season or 2..

a leak down test is the first thing i would do. more than 5% leak down? not too bad.. but as a front running expert, i don't wanna see more tan 5-6%, and i wanna see consistency across all 4 cylinders. 10% ? most experts will rebuild but for most track day riders or AM racers, not a huge deal.. one friend of mine had 25 % leak down on his engine (1st year expert and had 3 seasons on his engine) and it still ran decent, but obviously well down on power. My guy did the rebuild for him. Rings, bearings, sent the head to KWS for seat cutting, all new valves and springs.

road use and pump gas.. not nearly the problems with valves that you will see with a race engine regularly 9000rpm or higher, and using race fuel. Race fuel leaves a horrible reside that as stated before, pits the exst valve faces..

do a compression test (min spec for a STOCK motor is 185psi, with less than 10psi variation from cyl to cyl).. comp test needs done with the butterfly plates on the throttle bodies held open somewhat, and all spark plugs out (so it cranks faster) and a good and charged battery. Slow crank, and/or butterflys closed, will show low psi !
a leak down test is better.. but need a mechanic with the leak down tool and know-how to do it. This test indicates not only the amount of leak-down, but WHERE it's coming from. If you hear the hissing air from throttle bodies it's intake valve leak, at the muffler it's leaking past exhaust valves, if from the ignition cover area (and have to have off to move engine to TDC on each cyl) it's leaking past the rings..

hard core racing, every season should do a build. (rings, pistons, bearings, valves, springs, seats cut, hone cyl). every couple sesasons for AM racing to be safe..

ALSO! i don't see any reason why a "built" motor should be rebuilt any more often than a typical race engine. A good superbike build, with carrillo rods, won't need rebuilt any more often than a typical supersport build (just thinner head gasket and cam timing).
So...what about the track day heros/racers that use bone stock engines with pump gas? ;)
 

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Meh
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So...what about the track day heros/racers that use bone stock engines with pump gas? ;)
Word. I would say that describes the situation for the vast majority of club racers. At least at my club.

At the very least, it seems worthwhile to do a compression test once a season and go from there.
 

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When in doubtThrottle out
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I've never done a leak down test on mine, probably should ...

This bike was custom dyno'd on Sunoco 250 from an AMA round it was used for. Not sure how the integrity of the engine was other than the tune that it was running....118whp on a bone stock motor with 260 fuel.
 

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wat?
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Discussion Starter #12
they are not long for this world. exst. valves must be replaced on a race engine using race fuel every season or 2..
Thanks for the great insights. :cheers Is there a visual inspection you do on the ex. valves to determine if they need to be replaced? Or when do you (personally/your builder) decide to replace them?

So...what about the track day heros/racers that use bone stock engines with pump gas? ;)
Hah yeah that's me, still on the pump gas train. My amateur season concludes in ~3 weeks and then I'll make the bump to expert.

FWIW I pulled my GPX Pro (have to send in for repair) and it said ~35 hours and a little over 2100 miles (again, all track miles). It's been on/running except for I think maybe 2-3 track days. That includes ~30 races.

My "off season" is coming up in June (when it's too damn hot...) and I figure I will take care of deferred maintenance then (e.g., fork oil, valve adjustment, etc.). I might do a u4.4 tune, though still on the fence if I want to get sucked into that addiction (and the increased valve wear might further dissuade me). I would hope that the motor doesn't need any work at this point, but sounds like a compression and leakdown test would be a good idea to at least get a benchmark so I can check it again later.
 

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"The Dude abides .. "
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So...what about the track day heros/racers that use bone stock engines with pump gas? ;)
Word. I would say that describes the situation for the vast majority of club racers. At least at my club.

At the very least, it seems worthwhile to do a compression test once a season and go from there.
yes. as stated earlier, do a compression test periodically at minimum.. per the manual for an 08R6 or later (13.1:1 compression pistons) 185PSI is MINIMUM spec compression with 10psi or less variation from cyl to cy. (doing the test per the manual, butterflys held open, fast crank, warm motor).

but pay a good mechanic $50-90 to do a leak down test once a year. That will give you a very good prognosis of the overall "health" of the motor. 1-2% is a newly built/fresh motor. 5% .. not too bad. 10%, most racers will surely rebuild at this point but track day guys are fine. 20%, significant power loss at this point. 30% or more, something is darn near broken.
 

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"The Dude abides .. "
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rhouck , the leak down test should be done before tear down. If there is very little leak down, no need to even pull the motor apart. Valves are VERY expensive ($1000 minimum for a full set of 16). And you are crazy to buy new valves, if you don't spend $250+- to have the seats in the head cut...

intakes generally don't show too much wear, even with race fuel. It's the ex valves that take a beating and get a buildup on the stem and top side of the face.. and there is a buildup of crud in the exs. port of the head too. it's way worse, if you don't chase the mr12 or any oxygenated fuel out after a race weekend with pump gas for a good while. I drain the tank (have a bung welded on teh bottom with a quick disconnect), then take off the fuel line and drain both fuel rails (have to used an air tip sometimes to coax the fuel out .. ) then hook it all back up and run some non-ethanol fuel through for a good while. THEN , i fog the motor if it 's gonna sit a couple weeks or more. I use wd40, but there is actual fogging oil spray you can buy. With the air box lid off, you spray a little into each velocity stack while running the bike. DO NOT spray a bunch into any one cyl at a time, as you can literally hydro lock the motor.. so just go back and forth real fast across all 4 v-stacks then shut the enigine off. the ports and cyl are then coated a little and resist the oxidation that forms on the exst valves and exst ports..

the crud that forms if you don't chase race fuel out is real.. chase it out, fog the motor. if you run mr12 or some other race fuels. YOU WILL NOT get this stuff forming if you use pump gas.


 

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Reads the rulez
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Yeah, eff all that. I'll stick with pump gas until I'm actually a threat to getting consistently on the podium. I'm all about normal bike tear down between races, but fvuck all that noise. :lmao
 

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"The Dude abides .. "
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^^ yup.

going faster is fun and all, and the chicks seem to dig it :) but it can cost silly money (unless you are just some uber talented phenom). More tires, more engine rebuilds, better suspension, etc. I sometimes miss the days of just doing track days, and getting 2 days out of a rear tire, running it one way one day and flipping for the next...
 

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Reads the rulez
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Off topic, but I decided to get my suspension refreshed by the man, the myth, the legend, Thermosman this year. Talked to him a good bit on the phone. Without me saying anything, he asked me "Do you have problems getting the bike to finish turns?" And I was OH MY GOD... yes!!! I thought it was some kind of black magic, he knew the problems I was having and I didn't even mention it...

Anyways, I'm looking forward to this year. :)
 

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When in doubtThrottle out
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Off topic, but I decided to get my suspension refreshed by the man, the myth, the legend, Thermosman this year. Talked to him a good bit on the phone. Without me saying anything, he asked me "Do you have problems getting the bike to finish turns?" And I was OH MY GOD... yes!!! I thought it was some kind of black magic, he knew the problems I was having and I didn't even mention it...

Anyways, I'm looking forward to this year. :)
:lmao we talk about refresh and you suddenly go into anything refreshing...care to talk about a spring scented douche next?
 

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"The Dude abides .. "
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Off topic, but I decided to get my suspension refreshed by the man, the myth, the legend, Thermosman this year. Talked to him a good bit on the phone. Without me saying anything, he asked me "Do you have problems getting the bike to finish turns?" And I was OH MY GOD... yes!!! I thought it was some kind of black magic, he knew the problems I was having and I didn't even mention it...

Anyways, I'm looking forward to this year. :)
T-man is the only tuner that i have build my stuff.. he has the right personality for the job too, especially working with wound up racer types, he's sooo laid back. Makes discussing things easy. Almost as important, he won't try to sell you something that you don't yet need.
 

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Reads the rulez
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:lmao we talk about refresh and you suddenly go into anything refreshing...care to talk about a spring scented douche next?
I dropped 2 seconds by making sure I douche with spring scents before every race day...


Don't judge me.

:moon
 
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