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I hate you Turn 4!
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Discussion Starter #1
Here is the deal. I hooked on track days and now I cannot gather enough info. Was out at Nelson's and since this was my 2nd track day I figured I stay with the beginner/instructional group. So until the last two sessions we had to follow the instructor and then if we felt good enough we could ride alone or still behind the instructor. (Instructors still out on the track watching). I felt good enough to ride alone along with my buddy jay. He led the first time out.

My question is, I was faster going into the turns but we were only allowed to pass in the straight parts so I would try to run outside and pass just after we had exited a turn. The problem was I'd be in 3rd coming into a turn but I would feel like I was loosing power and speed as I was coming out of the turn. And my buddy would pull away until the next turn and then the same thing again. Should I drop down to 2nd just after exiting the turn to being the rpms and power up?Go into the turn in 2nd? Or should I try more to stick to his tail and try to bet him in the straight? Any info would be great guys thanks.

Here is turn 13 at nelson (deff one of my faves)
here is a pick
 

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Super Mod
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if you are losing the race coming out of a turn, you either need to be a gear lower or get on the gas sooner. but in this case it sounds like a gear lower would solve the problem. I get a bit nervous passing on the outside because some people dont see you and go all the way out to the curb and will push you off. I have seen it quite a few times in front of me when the person trying to pass came really close to going off and had to close the throttle. I say go in deeper, square it off and pass him on the inside of the exit and take it from there.
 

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crashing aint so bad
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It is difficult to pass on the outside of turns unless they are long sweepers. However you are describing the exit of turns as being the issue, not the turn itself. The same rules apply on a motorcycle as it does to the size of a circle. Remember that if you have 2 circles, one small and one big. If you were to travel the circumference of each circle in the same amount of time you would have to go faster to travel the bigger circle.

The same principal applies to riding a bike through a turn. If you are running a wider line, you are already traveling faster than your friend just to keep up. If you were to follow directly behind him you would be going slower and be able to still keep up. So why does he pull away from you if you are already going faster. Your wide line will still pretty much end on the same piece of tarmac that your friend will. He started inside, but as the turn comes to an end he will be able to widen his line assuming he hit his apex. This means that he is probably on the gas a little sooner than you. Since your wider line actually puts you deeper into the turn off the power, he will quickly and easily make up the difference in speed just being able to get on the gas sooner. Not to mention he already has the desired piece of real estate.

Lets apply the logic. Your friend is traveling the same distance as you at a slower speed in the same amount of time. You are traveling a line that keeps you from getting on the gas sooner than your friend. Even if you do get on the gas sooner your friend will still be able to out pull you, due to advantageous track position and being able to widen his line as he gets on the gas. Passing on the outside is the most difficult because of those basic principles. The only real exception is long sweeping turns where the higher speed can be carried around another rider. The only other exception may be in a chicane or set of esses where being on the outside at one turn exit may set you up for better entry on the next turn.

So to directly answer your question. I would consider your strong points. You are faster in general than your friend. I would either work on beating him on the brakes into turns, or following his line and try to beat him by getting on the gas sooner. Downshifting another gear may give you more pull but if you get greedy you could run out of traction. Staying in the current gear and using his line, just getting on the gas sooner will tell you more. If you are on the gas sooner you will notice it as you begin to close up on him. This added momentum can be used to out pull him once out of the turn. Now if you begin to close up on him and he pulls away as the turn opens up, then you are in to high of a gear and should consider downshifting another gear BEFORE you go into the turn. Another trick is to leave some space between you and your opponent. What you will then do is use your extra speed through the turn to carry you for better drive out. You hang back on corner entry and use the same line as your opponent. You allow yourself to carry the extra speed that you normally have into and through the turn. This will close the gap mid turn, and then you get on the gas sooner and use that as drive out of the turn. If executed properly you will slingshot past him on the exit. This approach requires some good estimation on speed vs. gap management. It will also allow some one else behind you to come underneath you on corner entry and snake your line. You have to be suave about what you do and when you do it. In most all case the trick to beating the next guy is to be on the gas sooner ( This does not mean harder ) in order to have extra drive out of turns.

Being on the gas sooner does not mean that you are going W.O.T it just means sooner. The goal is to get on the gas A.S.A.P after initiating a turn. If you have the same line and same speed as another rider and get on the gas sooner regardless of how much it is. you have a much higher chance of out driving them out of a turn. Just don't get greedy. Remember that, " too much of a good thing is still too much "........ Hope this helps.
 

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Keep it Rubber-Side Down
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Hey, nice post....I too go to Nelson's quite a bit. Track days are def addictive and will teach you more about the bike's and your ability as a rider than riding the street ever could.

I was at Nelson's on the 11th...I was taking the Race School but there are a lot of great instructors that would definately take some time to give you some one-on-one help....just ask.

Sam is a REALLY good rider and is very smooth both in his riding and instructing.

Let me know if you're planning on going back on October 2nd....I might show up.
 

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Rebuilding Track-Whore
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My question is, I was faster going into the turns but we were only allowed to pass in the straight parts so I would try to run outside and pass just after we had exited a turn. The problem was I'd be in 3rd coming into a turn but I would feel like I was loosing power and speed as I was coming out of the turn. And my buddy would pull away until the next turn and then the same thing again. Should I drop down to 2nd just after exiting the turn to being the rpms and power up?Go into the turn in 2nd? Or should I try more to stick to his tail and try to bet him in the straight? Any info would be great guys thanks.
From the sounds of it:

You need to be in 2nd gear at your turn-in and carry that gear through the turn. The requirement for needing to drop down a gear after the apex and as you are standing the bike up sounds like you just started the turn in the wrong gear. As said earlier, get your braking and down-shifting done BEFORE the turn.

Trying to pass someone on the straights generally comes down to how much motor you got (a liter-bike will just out-walk you, or should with a good rider aboard) or who can carry a higher speed at the apex and roll-on sooner. One problem some riders have with passing on straights only is they bunch the rider ahead of them (think ass-pack) and then get themselves slowed down at the middle of the turn and have to wait for the leading rider to get rollling on before they can. If you carry a higher corner-speed, gap him before the turn/straight in which you want to make the pass. This will allow you to make a clean run and get a better drive. If you can get a good gap, leave it in 3rd and try to maintain the higher speed through the turn and you'll catch him by the exit most likely anyhow and be carrying more speed to pass him on the straights (that's how you would pass a liter-bike back).

Not an expert, but if he really is slowing you IN THE TURN, let him lead or give him a gap, then get past him...you might as well maximize your track-time.
 

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track junkie
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passing on the outside of a turn is a risky proposition for a track day. especially for a rider who only has a couple days under his/her belt.

your best bet is to get your passing done on the brakes before the turn or set them up for a hard drive out of the corner. using your momentum is the key. get your shifting and braking done while the bike's vertical, tho.

be safe...


s3aturnr
 

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Rebuilding Track-Whore
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passing on the outside of a turn is a risky proposition for a track day. especially for a rider who only has a couple days under his/her belt.
Some trackday organizers stipulate this in their "Intermediate" groups and I would prefer to pass while vertical myself. Generally the outside of the turns is a good place for "stuff" (rubber bits from tires, loose silt of gravel, turtles, etc.) to accumulate.
 

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track junkie
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Some trackday organizers stipulate this in their "Intermediate" groups and I would prefer to pass while vertical myself. Generally the outside of the turns is a good place for "stuff" (rubber bits from tires, loose silt of gravel, turtles, etc.) to accumulate.
very true. i have passed on the outside before, but i don't really like doing it. turn 7-8 at gingerman is a perfect example; the new riders take the inside line and it's REALLY slow. you can motor right past them mid-track...


s3aturnr
 

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I hate you Turn 4!
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Discussion Starter #10
I guess I didn't really state it right. My buddy would be leading into the turn and would brake earlier that what I would, Remeber inst. group so I couldn't pass him or anyone in the turns. So I'd have to slow down earlier to not pass in the turn. Only in the straight parts. I'd try to swing out a little early towards to outside since everyone was trying to keep an inside line exiting this turn. The instr. were telling everyone to stick to the inside and to plan on being passed on the outside.
here is turn 13 and what I was trying to do



Thanks for the help guys


I'll be there Oct 2nd as long as it doesn't rain, Did that once in May don't think I'll do it again.
 

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track junkie
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sounds like you can do that in either spot; out brake him going in or out-drive him coming out. just make sure you're 100% you can finish the pass before the next corner. clunking into somebody at speed is no fun. don't ask how i know this...


s3aturnr
 

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Rebuilding Track-Whore
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I guess I didn't really state it right. My buddy would be leading into the turn and would brake earlier that what I would, Remeber inst. group so I couldn't pass him or anyone in the turns. So I'd have to slow down earlier to not pass in the turn. Only in the straight parts. I'd try to swing out a little early towards to outside since everyone was trying to keep an inside line exiting this turn. The instr. were telling everyone to stick to the inside and to plan on being passed on the outside.
here is turn 13 and what I was trying to do
From the sounds of it:


From my earlier post
.... One problem some riders have with passing on straights only is they bunch the rider ahead of them (think ass-pack) and then get themselves slowed down at the middle of the turn and have to wait for the leading rider to get rollling on before they can. If you carry a higher corner-speed, gap him before the turn/straight in which you want to make the pass. This will allow you to make a clean run and get a better drive. If you can get a good gap, leave it in 3rd and try to maintain the higher speed through the turn and you'll catch him by the exit most likely anyhow and be carrying more speed to pass him on the straights (that's how you would pass a liter-bike back).

Not an expert, but if he really is slowing you IN THE TURN, let him lead or give him a gap, then get past him...you might as well maximize your track-time.
I'd deliberately roll back the turn prior and let him slow himself down without interrupting my rhythm. That way I could ride MY PACE through the turn and get past him on the straight...especially if I'm carrying an extra 10-15mph through the turn and to the exit...that way part of my accelerating is done and I'd prolly meet him slightly past the pit-in area in your drawing.

If you're following your buddy, you'll soon slow down to his pace rather than him speeding up to yours... On a 600, plan your passing well in advance similar to driving a 4-cylinder car on the highway, get a run at the pass.
 

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i love passing on the outside!!

 

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drag some knee
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well sounds to me like i would bump up a level.... it wasnt that you was in the wrong gear you just didnt have the rpms up bc you had to slow down ... buddy racing is not dangerous i do it all the time... hell every time i goto the track i do they help me push it to get faster... (race group) and when it comes to some slower guys ill pass anywhere it doesnt realy matter to me inside outside on the breaks or on the gas.... im not that fast but im quicker than some the only way you get better at it is to do it so move up a level... heck i like leanin in on the outside of someone you get a wierd feelin when your head is by there front wheel lol
 

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I hate you Turn 4!
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Discussion Starter #17
sounds like you can do that in either spot; out brake him going in or out-drive him coming out. just make sure you're 100% you can finish the pass before the next corner. clunking into somebody at speed is no fun. don't ask how i know this...
Oh I know what can happen, On the last track day me and my buddy did. Going into turn one, wet track. We were in different groups and he had a gixer 750 1999 and this retard on a zx-10 who really should have not been on the track ended up slaming into the back of my friend and another rider. Messed up his bike pretty good. I got stuck behind him the first time out but was moved up to a faster and then faster group.
 

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crashing aint so bad
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Your image here shows what I was talking about with lines.



Remember I mentioned that your friend is able to get on the gas sooner. If you look at the image you will see that your friend is running a pretty straight line out of that turn. He is likely upright and hard on the gas while you are still turning the bike. You will notice that your turning the bike very late into the turn. This means you are off the gas longer and will loose lots of drive out of the turn. Follow my advice about hanging back and using your friends line using your extra speed to slingshot past him just after the turns exit. If you still don't have the drive then try a lower gear.
 

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Life is best beyond 10k
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Nate, in your video, who are you waving to? :)
 
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