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Pastor of Muppets
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Discussion Starter #1
This past Fall, I bought an 09 R6 from a local racer/track rider. The bike came with 25mm Ohlins carts in the forks and a TTX in the rear and was rolling on Dunlop GPAs with a 190/60 rear.

I took the suspension out and sent it to Markbilt Racebikes to have it refreshed and resprung for my weight. They installed .95 springs in the forks with a 190mm oil level and swapped in a 95 Ohlins spring on the shock. The forks had two lines showing above the triple. The rear shock had the stock shim installed. I did not measure the shock length before I sent it out.

I reinstalled the forks with two lines showing and with ~294mm shock length and no shim. I contacted Markbilt for suggestions on initial set up numbers, and they said it was difficult to give good numbers without knowing what tires I will be running.

So, that got me thinking about what tires I will be running. The bike will be used for track days and hopefully a few race rounds with LRRS. I plan on ending up on race tires toward the end of the year. I will likely be using Pirellis. The issue is that I have never ridden on any race tires. I have done a dozen or so track days on my R6S, all on street tires (Q3's and then Pirelli Supercorsa SP's).

So, I am up in the air deciding how to start out this season. I'll be hitting the track for a weekend in late April. This will be the first time that I have ridden this bike. I am considering installing some street tires on the bike for the first track outing. I figure since I have never been on the bike that I would at least ride on some tires that I'm familiar with. I am also considering switching to a 180/55 rear.

Does this seem like a logical plan? How should I plan on transitioning from riding on street tires into race tires? Should I try some street tires or jump to something like the Pirelli Track Day Slicks? If I switch to a 180 rear, do I just need to reinstall the stock shock shim?

Thanks. I'm sure I'll come up with a few more questions this week as I put this bike back together.
:beerchug
 

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Mr. HER6
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As far as the tires you're going to start out on, if you've only ever ridden street tires (and are a B or slower A group rider) then my recommendation would be to go with those Pirelli pro's. The Q3's are a great tire, but on the track they will wear out faster, and as your pace increases they will just start moving around a lot where the Pro will continue to stick. When you're running a decent pace, 3 laps on the Q3 makes it feel like a worn out Pro. There is really no benefit in staying on a street tire unless you're actually going to ride the bike on the street.

Then when you decide to go to a race compound, if you stick with Pirelli, you don't have to change anything. Do not adjust your geometry for the Pirelli 180/60 any different from the 180/55. I made that mistake and it made my bike handle like absolute garbage. If you decide to switch to the Dunlop, you'll probably want to remove the rear shim as the Dunlop is a very large tire, but I can't say for sure because I have not tried it.
 

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Why yes I don't!!!!!!!!!!
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search in the suspension setup thread...theres some real #s to use for initial setup.

I have a bike with 25mm carts in the forks... I run the forks flush or even a mm sunk in the triples.
dont have a shim on the rear shock as it has ride height... but ~300mm sounds right. Im on the heavy side... at ~240 in gear.
My other bikes has the 30mm kit... it is just flush with the triples.
Ran the GPa pros since they were takeoffs from a local MotoA guy.
 

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Pastor of Muppets
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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
As far as the tires you're going to start out on, if you've only ever ridden street tires (and are a B or slower A group rider) then my recommendation would be to go with those Pirelli pro's. The Q3's are a great tire, but on the track they will wear out faster, and as your pace increases they will just start moving around a lot where the Pro will continue to stick. When you're running a decent pace, 3 laps on the Q3 makes it feel like a worn out Pro. There is really no benefit in staying on a street tire unless you're actually going to ride the bike on the street.

Then when you decide to go to a race compound, if you stick with Pirelli, you don't have to change anything. Do not adjust your geometry for the Pirelli 180/60 any different from the 180/55. I made that mistake and it made my bike handle like absolute garbage. If you decide to switch to the Dunlop, you'll probably want to remove the rear shim as the Dunlop is a very large tire, but I can't say for sure because I have not tried it.
I'm definitely leaning towards the Pro (trackday) slicks. The main reason that I have been considering street tires to start is that I have never ridden this bike. Or any other 3d gen bike for that matter. I just don't want to head out for the first few sessions and not be able to keep enough heat in the tires while I'm riding slower, trying to get comfortable on the bike. What is the general consensus on the Trackday slicks? My understanding is that they are pretty forgiving as they can be run without warmers?

I was running an upper Intermediate pace on my R6S, but understand this bike will take some getting used to.

As far as the Pirelli 180/55 vs 60, I thought that the 60 was a good bit taller? What kind of fork height and shock length were you running with those?

search in the suspension setup thread...theres some real #s to use for initial setup.

I have a bike with 25mm carts in the forks... I run the forks flush or even a mm sunk in the triples.
dont have a shim on the rear shock as it has ride height... but ~300mm sounds right. Im on the heavy side... at ~240 in gear.
My other bikes has the 30mm kit... it is just flush with the triples.
Ran the GPa pros since they were takeoffs from a local MotoA guy.
I'll take a look at that thread.

What size tire were you running with those settings? I've seen suggestions varying from keeping the forks flush to 2 lines showing, and anywhere in between. Also shock lengths from 290-300mm. I guess it will be a feeling out and adjusting process. I just want to try to get a nice pretty neutral baseline for my first time on the bike. I would prefer a little slower turn if it gives me more stability. That makes me think I may want to raise the front a little more than where I have it now.

The shock is fully adjustable for length. What is the benefit of running the shim vs. just adding the shim distance to the shock length?

Thanks for all the input.
 

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Why yes I don't!!!!!!!!!!
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I'll take a look at that thread.

What size tire were you running with those settings? I've seen suggestions varying from keeping the forks flush to 2 lines showing, and anywhere in between. Also shock lengths from 290-300mm. I guess it will be a feeling out and adjusting process. I just want to try to get a nice pretty neutral baseline for my first time on the bike. I would prefer a little slower turn if it gives me more stability. That makes me think I may want to raise the front a little more than where I have it now.

The shock is fully adjustable for length. What is the benefit of running the shim vs. just adding the shim distance to the shock length?

Thanks for all the input.
you can add/subtract shims for setting ride height. Or adjust the shock height to your needs. The shock adjustment is a tad more precise.
Dont know the overall lengthof your forks but if they have carts... starting at having them flush in the triples is pretty safe. Lower the front too much and you run the chance of bottoming out.

I ran the 120/70 and 190/60 variety. Good thing is you can "flip" the tire without issue. Designed to run in both directions so a plus for longevity. :wink:
 

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Mr. HER6
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I'm definitely leaning towards the Pro (trackday) slicks. The main reason that I have been considering street tires to start is that I have never ridden this bike. Or any other 3d gen bike for that matter. I just don't want to head out for the first few sessions and not be able to keep enough heat in the tires while I'm riding slower, trying to get comfortable on the bike. What is the general consensus on the Trackday slicks? My understanding is that they are pretty forgiving as they can be run without warmers?

I was running an upper Intermediate pace on my R6S, but understand this bike will take some getting used to.

As far as the Pirelli 180/55 vs 60, I thought that the 60 was a good bit taller? What kind of fork height and shock length were you running with those?
Keeping heat is not a problem on the Pirelli Pro's. You can pretty much treat them like a street tire if you want. I use warmers when I have them on my bike just so they're already hot, but my wife's bike always has them and we never use warmers on hers. I have no problem jumping on her bike, doing a quick warm up lap or 2 and then running them hard. They heat up quick, and will hold more heat because of that. And you can still go pretty damn fast on them.

At the mid to fast end of advanced group you will notice they don't grip as well as an SC, but it won't slow you down much. In my experience it makes for really good practice because you are trying to be as smooth as possible to avoid losing time sliding around, then when you go out on a race compound for race day you can maintain those techniques but kick it up a notch with the extra grip.

The 60 tire is a good bit taller. Something like 10mm if I remember correctly. I run 1 extra tooth on the rear sprocket because of it. When I first switched I pulled the shock shim, and raised the front a couple mm to try to compensate and it transferred way too much weight to the rear. The bike was just awful, and the front tire developed some pretty nasty geometry induced tearing. The thing is that there is not a 10mm difference when you're leaned over. I ended up with the shim back in the rear and the front only 1 or 2mm higher than it originally was. I can tell the 60 is steeper because the revs change more than the 55 does when you lean/stand the bike quickly. The advantage of using the shim is that it's easier to add/remove it than it is to adjust the shock length. If you cut part of it off, it's even easier and you can just loosen the top nut and slide it out.

I run the forks flush against the triple, and the shock is 291 or 292 plus the shim. I want to say the shim is 3mm, and it effects the ride height by 2x. But my 20mm Race Tech carts might not be as long as yours. If I remember, I will look up my fork length relative to the lower clamp. That's a better measurement that eliminates the variation across different forks. Also keep in mind that sag is a geometry component as well. Running the forks 5mm lower in the clamp, but with 5mm more sag is a wash as far as geometry goes.
 

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Pastor of Muppets
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Discussion Starter #7
you can add/subtract shims for setting ride height. Or adjust the shock height to your needs. The shock adjustment is a tad more precise.
Dont know the overall lengthof your forks but if they have carts... starting at having them flush in the triples is pretty safe. Lower the front too much and you run the chance of bottoming out.

I ran the 120/70 and 190/60 variety. Good thing is you can "flip" the tire without issue. Designed to run in both directions so a plus for longevity. :wink:
Thanks for the info. I've been reading through the thread you mentioned and am finding some pretty good stuff in there towards the end.

Keeping heat is not a problem on the Pirelli Pro's. You can pretty much treat them like a street tire if you want. I use warmers when I have them on my bike just so they're already hot, but my wife's bike always has them and we never use warmers on hers. I have no problem jumping on her bike, doing a quick warm up lap or 2 and then running them hard. They heat up quick, and will hold more heat because of that. And you can still go pretty damn fast on them.

At the mid to fast end of advanced group you will notice they don't grip as well as an SC, but it won't slow you down much. In my experience it makes for really good practice because you are trying to be as smooth as possible to avoid losing time sliding around, then when you go out on a race compound for race day you can maintain those techniques but kick it up a notch with the extra grip.

The 60 tire is a good bit taller. Something like 10mm if I remember correctly. I run 1 extra tooth on the rear sprocket because of it. When I first switched I pulled the shock shim, and raised the front a couple mm to try to compensate and it transferred way too much weight to the rear. The bike was just awful, and the front tire developed some pretty nasty geometry induced tearing. The thing is that there is not a 10mm difference when you're leaned over. I ended up with the shim back in the rear and the front only 1 or 2mm higher than it originally was. I can tell the 60 is steeper because the revs change more than the 55 does when you lean/stand the bike quickly. The advantage of using the shim is that it's easier to add/remove it than it is to adjust the shock length. If you cut part of it off, it's even easier and you can just loosen the top nut and slide it out.

I run the forks flush against the triple, and the shock is 291 or 292 plus the shim. I want to say the shim is 3mm, and it effects the ride height by 2x. But my 20mm Race Tech carts might not be as long as yours. If I remember, I will look up my fork length relative to the lower clamp. That's a better measurement that eliminates the variation across different forks. Also keep in mind that sag is a geometry component as well. Running the forks 5mm lower in the clamp, but with 5mm more sag is a wash as far as geometry goes.
This is exactly the type of feedback I was looking for. Thanks. I'll probably end up on the Pro Slicks to start. I like the idea that set up will be similar if I do switch to Pirelli race rubber.

I'm thinking that I'll probably start on a 180 rear. I'd like to keep at least one variable similar to something that I'm used to. I'll throw the shim back in the rear and consider lowering the forks in the triples some. I guess from there on out it will just have to wait until I can get some seat time on this thing.
 

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Mr. HER6
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Ok, I checked my notes... With the front up on a head-lift stand, the distance from the top of the lower triple clamp to the center of the axle is 520mm. The shock is 291mm plus the 3mm shim.
 

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Motosylum Racing #132
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I'll 2nd the settings His Own 6 posted. It's a great place to start.
I run the 180/60 with a Ohlins GP shock at the OEM length eye-to-eye and the shim in place.
My forks currently stick out of the top triple by 5mm
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the actual fork length change between 09 and 10 model years? I thought I read somewhere that the 10- up forks were longer. Not a lot, but still.
 

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Pastor of Muppets
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Discussion Starter #10
Ok, I checked my notes... With the front up on a head-lift stand, the distance from the top of the lower triple clamp to the center of the axle is 520mm. The shock is 291mm plus the 3mm shim.
I'll 2nd the settings His Own 6 posted. It's a great place to start.
I run the 180/60 with a Ohlins GP shock at the OEM length eye-to-eye and the shim in place.
My forks currently stick out of the top triple by 5mm
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the actual fork length change between 09 and 10 model years? I thought I read somewhere that the 10- up forks were longer. Not a lot, but still.

Great info. I'll try a baseline with something in that range. I'll have to get a measurement this week of the lower triple to axle, length. Was that measurement with the wheel where it sits on a stand, or with a foot on the wheel to compress the top-out spring?

The shock is currently at 293.5mm and installed without the shim. I guess that puts me right around the 291mm + stock shim mark. I'll leave it there for now and consider adding the shim if I switch to a 180/55.
 

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Reads the rulez
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Great info. I'll try a baseline with something in that range. I'll have to get a measurement this week of the lower triple to axle, length. Was that measurement with the wheel where it sits on a stand, or with a foot on the wheel to compress the top-out spring?

The shock is currently at 293.5mm and installed without the shim. I guess that puts me right around the 291mm + stock shim mark. I'll leave it there for now and consider adding the shim if I switch to a 180/55.
Zero reason to ever go to a 180/55 for a track bike.
 

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Mr. HER6
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Great info. I'll try a baseline with something in that range. I'll have to get a measurement this week of the lower triple to axle, length. Was that measurement with the wheel where it sits on a stand, or with a foot on the wheel to compress the top-out spring?

The shock is currently at 293.5mm and installed without the shim. I guess that puts me right around the 291mm + stock shim mark. I'll leave it there for now and consider adding the shim if I switch to a 180/55.
I'm pretty sure it's where the unloaded wheel naturally sits, just because it's too annoying to measure the full extension.
 

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If you're a mass guy and running LRRS are you on BORN or NESR forums? If running in the northern part of New England you will have trackside support from GMD Boston (MA) and Advanced Traction (CT). They will help even if you don't buy something from them.

Who are you running track days with? TTD?

If you're going to run the Pirellis hit up Mike at MTAG or Steve for Dunlop. don't quote me on being able to run slicks in LRRS... I know most like the Pirelli sc2's.
 

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Someone has mentioned this already but the forks are longer on the 10+ models. My bike is a 10 and I run the forks 10mm above the yokes as this is the standard setting for this model. I would check the length of your forks in case they are the later model ones.

I run the Pirelli 180/60 SC tyres on my race bike. You won't notice too much difference in the handling going from a 55 to a 60 section so I wouldn't change any of the geometry until you have ridden it with the bigger tyre. I much prefer the 60 and you really should be thinking this way for a track bike. The tyre is taller and seems to roll into the corners much better than the 55. Don't be worried about the taller profile causing instability and if it does you can just shorten the shock by 1 or 2 turns and it will cure it.

I wouldn't stray too far from the factory geometry. I run an Ohlins TTX shock with the standard square spacer above the shock clevis and it is sitting at its shortest shock length with the 60 tyre (from memory the TTX runs from +5mm to -0.5 from the standard shock length). I run mine at -0.5 but could probably go higher without causing instability. I run the forks at standard (+10mm showing above the yoke on the 10 model)

I my opinion the 13s handles so well you really run the risk of stuffing it up by trying to change the geometry. I set mine to standard geometry then just fine tuned it with the damping settings. I keep the wheelbase as close to standard as possible as well. It's the best handling bike I've ever ridden. The pirelli supercorsa SC tyres give very good feeling from the front even if they are not necessarily the grippiest rear tyre you can buy
 

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Sorry edited the above. I've just checked my bike and it has the standard square washer fitted above the shock.....so sitting at standard factory geometry minus 0.5mm of ride height at the rear
 

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I've always heard to 06/07 forks were 10mm shorter then the 08/15? In stock form of course. We put a 10mm thing in ours to lengthen the 08+ too. There so god damn many differences in suspension. I just ride the thing :)

I didn't read through the whole thing, but I think I seen you were going to change tire and shims. My preference would be to change one, ride, then change again.

Same as gearing too. Technically you should add a tooth for the larger tire. I always did too. One time I forgot to do it, and left the smaller gear on and instantly I liked it more.
 

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Why yes I don't!!!!!!!!!!
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I've always heard to 06/07 forks were 10mm shorter then the 08/15? In stock form of course. We put a 10mm thing in ours to lengthen the 08+ too. There so god damn many differences in suspension. I just ride the thing...
over all length that is true. My 07 forks with 25mm carts are ~35mm longer than a stock 2010 fork. Hadnt measured my 2010 fork with 30mm carts but eyeballing them they look a hair longer.
 

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Pastor of Muppets
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Discussion Starter #18
Zero reason to ever go to a 180/55 for a track bike.
Noted. Seems to be the general consensus.

I'm pretty sure it's where the unloaded wheel naturally sits, just because it's too annoying to measure the full extension.
I'm around 511mm from top side of lower triple to center of axle. That is with two lines showing. I'll try dropping to one line, and see how it coincides with your measurements.

If you're a mass guy and running LRRS are you on BORN or NESR forums? If running in the northern part of New England you will have trackside support from GMD Boston (MA) and Advanced Traction (CT). They will help even if you don't buy something from them.

Who are you running track days with? TTD?

If you're going to run the Pirellis hit up Mike at MTAG or Steve for Dunlop. don't quote me on being able to run slicks in LRRS... I know most like the Pirelli sc2's.
The plan is to run a few rounds with LRRS this year. I've heard pretty good things about GMD, and am interested in working with them, but I have not had any luck getting a response when I contact them. I tried a few times via email/website and never received a response.

I'll be doing the TTD weekend at Thompson in April and hopefully a Wed. at Loudon, mid May. I haven't run with them before. I've only lived up here for a year and a half, and have done a day with Penguin at Thompson and TPM at NYST.

I'm on NESR, I actually bought this bike from a member there. I don't really follow it or post there, though. I'm sure that will change this year.

I've heard about MTAG, and will probably buy tires from them. About the slicks, I wasn't planning on racing with them, just dialing in the bike on something a little more forgiving than an all-out race tire. I will probably work towards running SC's.

Someone has mentioned this already but the forks are longer on the 10+ models. My bike is a 10 and I run the forks 10mm above the yokes as this is the standard setting for this model. I would check the length of your forks in case they are the later model ones.

I run the Pirelli 180/60 SC tyres on my race bike. You won't notice too much difference in the handling going from a 55 to a 60 section so I wouldn't change any of the geometry until you have ridden it with the bigger tyre. I much prefer the 60 and you really should be thinking this way for a track bike. The tyre is taller and seems to roll into the corners much better than the 55. Don't be worried about the taller profile causing instability and if it does you can just shorten the shock by 1 or 2 turns and it will cure it.

I wouldn't stray too far from the factory geometry. I run an Ohlins TTX shock with the standard square spacer above the shock clevis and it is sitting at its shortest shock length with the 60 tyre (from memory the TTX runs from +5mm to -0.5 from the standard shock length). I run mine at -0.5 but could probably go higher without causing instability. I run the forks at standard (+10mm showing above the yoke on the 10 model)

I my opinion the 13s handles so well you really run the risk of stuffing it up by trying to change the geometry. I set mine to standard geometry then just fine tuned it with the damping settings. I keep the wheelbase as close to standard as possible as well. It's the best handling bike I've ever ridden. The pirelli supercorsa SC tyres give very good feeling from the front even if they are not necessarily the grippiest rear tyre you can buy
I've always heard to 06/07 forks were 10mm shorter then the 08/15? In stock form of course. We put a 10mm thing in ours to lengthen the 08+ too. There so god damn many differences in suspension. I just ride the thing :)

I didn't read through the whole thing, but I think I seen you were going to change tire and shims. My preference would be to change one, ride, then change again.

Same as gearing too. Technically you should add a tooth for the larger tire. I always did too. One time I forgot to do it, and left the smaller gear on and instantly I liked it more.
I'll play around with some of the settings mentioned in this thread, and see how it goes. It seems that none of them stray too far from the stock geometry. Does anyone know stock shock length? I'll have to see what rear sprocket is installed, it may already be +1 as it was set up for a 190. What is the stock rear tooth count?

Thanks again for all the input.
 

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45 tooth rear stock. We use 190 all the time now. The edge grip is great in the long flowing corners. You give up a little flip flop in corners as far as how fast you can stand it up but the edge grip is better I think. You have to be able to keep the 190 hot though too. The big benefit of the 190 is the extra meat it has a more lean angle, so if you aren't keeping the heat in that spot, they're useless until you are spinning up or overheating the 180.

I run michelins, but as far as I know a Pirelli 180/60 is almost identical to the michelins 190/55. The 180/55 compared to a 180/60 makes the Michelin 180 look like a 250 tire lol.
 

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Pastor of Muppets
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Discussion Starter #20
Bumping this one back up after a little winter hiatus.

I'm getting ready to order some tires for this bike, and still have some questions.

I'm looking into getting some Pirelli Superbike Pro Slicks. From the feedback in this thread I've been convinced to go with a 180/60 rear. The problem is, it doesn't seem that they make a 180/60 rear, only a 55 in the Superbike Pro. I guess I may end up running a 55 and then transition to a 60 when I switch over to the SC's.

Second question is about gearing. The bike currently, with the 190/60 GPA has a 48T Rear sprocket. Everyone said that going to the larger rear would require +1 in the rear. Could it be assumed that the P.O. just ran a larger rear out of preference or setup for a specific track? If I do run the 180/55, should I consider a shorter rear sprocket?

Thanks for the input. Can't wait to get this thing on track in a month!
 
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