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Discussion Starter #1
So, I was debating on what sprockets to play with on my 06 R6r ( front or rear )......and i decided to just go with a -1 up front.

My question is, is there any sort of performance difference between changing the front sprocket vs. changing the rear? I know that people like the -1, +2......or the -1, +1.......and of course it all depends on the rider, track and so on, but in terms of hp and or torque applied to the rear wheel.....is there a difference?

I just want to get a little extra "get up and go" out of the corners and I really don't plan on swapping out sprockets on the rear anytime soon.......but i guess that could change depending on the tracks i visit.

Just looking for some other input here.
 

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When in doubtThrottle out
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1 tooth on the front is about equivalent to 3 in the rear. So -1 up front is the same as having gone +3 on the rear. So having an additional tooth or two on the rear isn't that big of a deal.
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
so, realistically, the only point to having the rear sprocket in various sizes in the ability to change them easier then the front? I went with the front sprocket bc i found a protek one for $22.50 shipped, vs $60-75 for a rear.

A second question......i will be able to use the stock chain length with my new front sprocket? Its the same pitch ( 525 )....just a -1. Obviously the axle will need to move back just a little to take up the slack.
 

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No the rear will allow you to make smaller changes to the gear ratio. Think of the front sprocket as a coarse adjustment, the rear as a fine.

Gearing / Sprockets have no affect on HP or torque.
 

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"The Dude abides .. "
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correct. hp/torque doesn't change, but the rate of acceleration does change. there are pluses and minuses to gearing changes.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
No the rear will allow you to make smaller changes to the gear ratio. Think of the front sprocket as a coarse adjustment, the rear as a fine.

Gearing / Sprockets have no affect on HP or torque.
yea, i know it doesnt affect hp technically, but though physics, i thought there may have been a chage in the way it was delivered. Kind of like an engine having two hp ratings....one is an hp rating at the crank the other being at the rear wheel. The rear wheel always being the lower of the two.....as power is lost through the drive train. I guess the more i think about it, it wouldnt matter........it just comes down to gearing and how quckly you climb the rpm range.
 

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yea, i know it doesnt affect hp technically, but though physics, i thought there may have been a chage in the way it was delivered. Kind of like an engine having two hp ratings....one is an hp rating at the crank the other being at the rear wheel. The rear wheel always being the lower of the two.....as power is lost through the drive train. I guess the more i think about it, it wouldnt matter........it just comes down to gearing and how quckly you climb the rpm range.
Changing the gearing to a shorter (smaller front, larger back) ratio will increase the rate of acceleration, but decrease the top speed. You will get to top speed much quicker.

When I raced go-karts we preferred to have the larger front sprocket, because they will last longer. Using smaller gears will wear out your chain and sprockets faster since they will undergo more revolutions than a larger gearing with the same ratio.

I say stick with the larger front and play with the rear gear, until it because necessary to move to a smaller front.
 

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"The Dude abides .. "
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yea, i know it doesnt affect hp technically, but though physics, i thought there may have been a chage in the way it was delivered. Kind of like an engine having two hp ratings....one is an hp rating at the crank the other being at the rear wheel. The rear wheel always being the lower of the two.....as power is lost through the drive train. I guess the more i think about it, it wouldnt matter........it just comes down to gearing and how quckly you climb the rpm range.
as racerstf and Ohio stated, hp is hp. it can be rated at the crank or at the rear wheel, but it would be the same at both ends regardless of changes to final drive ratios. Acceleration is not hp. More hp allows a faster acceleration for the same drive ratio (we all know that), but changing the sprocket does not affect the hp at the crank or rear wheel..

Changing gear ratios to simply accelerate faster does NOT always get you a faster lap around a race circuit. If it did, every roadracer would simply put the largest ratio on you could (smallest front and biggest rear sprocket possible). But that would kill top speed, and making way more shifts than needed between corners. And remember, you only have so much EDGE GRIP. You have only so much traction at lean angle, too much throttle and you highside. It all comes down to what works "best" to get around the track.
Drag strip ? sure. put on what works best in a straight line for a 1/4 or 1/8th mile.
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Thanks for taking the time to answer guys.

So......one more question. Whether I do a -1 up front or go bigger by a tooth or two on the back sprocket ( already have the -1 sprocket, just have not installed it yet ) climbing the RPM range quicker will happen in both scenarios correct? Realistically, how much faster will it climb......will i really notice a huge difference in how much quicker i will have to up shift when on the track or is it only a slight difference since I'm just doing the -1 up front? I just want a little more "kick" out of the corners when i begin my drives, but i don't want to have a "oh shit" moment realizing that I am redlining so much quicker. Something tells me a -1 isnt going to be a ground breaking gear change thats going to blow my mind, but i'm just curious on opinions of those who have done it.
 

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"The Dude abides .. "
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Thanks for taking the time to answer guys.

So......one more question. Whether I do a -1 up front or go bigger by a tooth or two on the back sprocket ( already have the -1 sprocket, just have not installed it yet ) climbing the RPM range quicker will happen in both scenarios correct? Realistically, how much faster will it climb......will i really notice a huge difference in how much quicker i will have to up shift when on the track or is it only a slight difference since I'm just doing the -1 up front? I just want a little more "kick" out of the corners when i begin my drives, but i don't want to have a "oh shit" moment realizing that I am redlining so much quicker.
-1t on the front sprocket is a huge gearing change for track riding. Huge. Understand that the engineers of this bike put a lot of time and testing into picking the final drive ratio of this machine at the test tracks. It was a big debate between a 45 and 46 .. and that is one tooth at the REAR. ;)
It's not possible to say how much faster your bike will rev. That is based on lots of things, how much HP does your bike make.. how fast are you rolling the throttle on, how heavy are you, etc. Just know it WILL rev faster but may have you needing to make an extra UP shift and thus extra DOWN shift in between 2 corners that otherwise would have needed 1 less up/down shift. see where i'm going with that ??
Ask yourself this... how often at your track are you REALLY 100% throttle. I bet it's a lot less than you think. Try the -1 front tooth if you have it already. You should learn how things feel and what works and what doesn't. But just going with big gear ratios (small front/big rear) is NOT the way to a faster lap time in most cases.
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
-1t on the front sprocket is a huge gearing change for track riding. Huge. Understand that the engineers of this bike put a lot of time and testing into picking the final drive ratio of this machine at the test tracks. It was a big debate between a 45 and 46 .. and that is one tooth at the REAR. ;)
It's not possible to say how much faster your bike will rev. That is based on lots of things, how much HP does your bike make.. how fast are you rolling the throttle on, how heavy are you, etc. Just know it WILL rev faster but may have you needing to make an extra UP shift and thus extra DOWN shift in between 2 corners that otherwise would have needed 1 less up/down shift. see where i'm going with that ??
Ask yourself this... how often at your track are you REALLY 100% throttle. I bet it's a lot less than you think. Try the -1 front tooth if you have it already. You should learn how things feel and what works and what doesn't. But just going with big gear ratios (small front/big rear) is NOT the way to a faster lap time in most cases.
hmmmmm, now you really got me thinking. Realistically, I am just try to get the bike to a higher mph a little quicker when driving out of a corner and onto a straight. I agree with you, that playing with gearing probably wont get me much quicker when turning laps, but often times feel like i need a little more kick. My motor is stock, i run about 4-5 seconds off of an advanced pace on the two tracks that I frequent, plus i'm 6'3 225 lbs, so I was hoping to compensate the weight of my body by adding a little more acceleration by changing gears. Without doing so, I am not sure how my shift points would be affected on either track. I guess I would just need to do it and see what happens. I agree, however that if i need to shift up one extra time ( and shift down one more time ), would simply be more of a pain in the ass than its worth. Maybe I should have just grabbed a +1 and a +2 rear and experimented more so than the -1.

i see everybody going -1, +2........but I didnt want to go that agressive......
 

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"The Dude abides .. "
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hmmmmm, now you really got me thinking. Realistically, I am just try to get the bike to a higher mph a little quicker when driving out of a corner and onto a straight. I agree with you, that playing with gearing probably wont get me much quicker when turning laps, but often times feel like i need a little more kick. My motor is stock, i run about 4-5 seconds off of an advanced pace on the two tracks that I frequent, plus i'm 6'3 225 lbs, so I was hoping to compensate the weight of my body by adding a little more acceleration by changing gears. Without doing so, I am not sure how my shift points would be affected on either track. I guess I would just need to do it and see what happens. I agree, however that if i need to shift up one extra time ( and shift down one more time ), would simply be more of a pain in the ass than its worth. Maybe I should have just grabbed a +1 and a +2 rear and experimented more so than the -1.

i see everybody going -1, +2........but I didnt want to go that agressive......
you see "everybody" going -1/+2 because that is what all the street riders think ya need to do to make the bikes "faster", and it gets posted as the "to do" thing all over the forums. Well, it's only faster if you are 100% throttle in a straight line with the bike 100% upright.
On a track, you are on the side of the tire a bunch, NOT fully upright. Even if you were 125lb not 225lb, you wold need to learn to keep your corner speed up. If you wanna "point and shoot" in and out of corners, relying on HP to get you from corner to corner, buy an R1. ;) And sure, at 225lb, you are at a disadvantage on the track those few times you do get to be 100% throttle. But are you relying on making a car payment on your riding ability ?? :) Just have fun.

A 600cc will make you a better rider. Keep at it, buy lots of tires, and get as much track time as you can. IF hp made huge difference, i should be able to go WAY faster per lap on my r6 superbike (135+ hp) than my supersport r6 (123+hp).. at most tracks i only go 1/2 second a lap on the sb, and i am WAY faster than many riders on a 1000cc bike. When you become better on your bike, you will be held up by rides on a 1000.
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
you see "everybody" going -1/+2 because that is what all the street riders think ya need to do to make the bikes "faster", and it gets posted as the "to do" thing all over the forums. Well, it's only faster if you are 100% throttle in a straight line with the bike 100% upright.
On a track, you are on the side of the tire a bunch, NOT fully upright. Even if you were 125lb not 225lb, you wold need to learn to keep your corner speed up. If you wanna "point and shoot" in and out of corners, relying on HP to get you from corner to corner, buy an R1. ;) And sure, at 225lb, you are at a disadvantage on the track those few times you do get to be 100% throttle. But are you relying on making a car payment on your riding ability ?? :) Just have fun.

A 600cc will make you a better rider. Keep at it, buy lots of tires, and get as much track time as you can. IF hp made huge difference, i should be able to go WAY faster per lap on my r6 superbike (135+ hp) than my supersport r6 (123+hp).. at most tracks i only go 1/2 second a lap on the sb, and i am WAY faster than many riders on a 1000cc bike. When you become better on your bike, you will be held up by rides on a 1000.
MELKMAN.....thanks for the input. Based on your videos and such that I have seen, you seem to know your stuff.

Looks like I'm gonna stick with the stock gearing. Corner entry and corner speed is where i'm gonna pick up time at this point in my track riding career, so i guess you are probably right about not gaining much out of my point and shoot drives......which i already do pretty well ( my mid corner to corner exit drives out ).

One more question though, i have been looking into the Dunlop 211's and see they only come in 190's. When squeezed onto the R6 wheel it becomes a taller tire. I have heard of some guys going +1 just to compensate for the larger diameter tire.

From a gearing standpoint on cars ( and I assume the same goes for bikes ), its harder to get a 20" wheel rolling vs say a 18" wheel ( using the same drive train on both wheels ). Does that make sense to you? the 190 will be taller than the 180 when squeezed on the R6 wheel and will have a slightly tougher time accelerating.


i may just go with power ones / cups and do the 180 /120 anyhow......just curious on your thoughts as well. I like dunlop, but have always been a michelin fan, even when i worked in a auto tire shop as a teenager.
 

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um a 15 in the front picks the slow speed acceleration up pretty good. Chain doesnt rub the guide terribly especially if you keep your chain well maintained. Definitely pulls off the corners harder and saves me a downshift on some turns. The overall diameter from 15 to 16 isnt much but if you have a track with a long straight... the 16 will work at tad better. But other than that it works pretty good for $20
 

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When in doubtThrottle out
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MELKMAN.....thanks for the input. Based on your videos and such that I have seen, you seem to know your stuff.

Looks like I'm gonna stick with the stock gearing. Corner entry and corner speed is where i'm gonna pick up time at this point in my track riding career, so i guess you are probably right about not gaining much out of my point and shoot drives......which i already do pretty well ( my mid corner to corner exit drives out ).

One more question though, i have been looking into the Dunlop 211's and see they only come in 190's. When squeezed onto the R6 wheel it becomes a taller tire. I have heard of some guys going +1 just to compensate for the larger diameter tire.

From a gearing standpoint on cars ( and I assume the same goes for bikes ), its harder to get a 20" wheel rolling vs say a 18" wheel ( using the same drive train on both wheels ). Does that make sense to you? the 190 will be taller than the 180 when squeezed on the R6 wheel and will have a slightly tougher time accelerating.


i may just go with power ones / cups and do the 180 /120 anyhow......just curious on your thoughts as well. I like dunlop, but have always been a michelin fan, even when i worked in a auto tire shop as a teenager.
What is your pace? Unless you are getting mid pack A group you won't need the Power Cups, you would be fine spending less money on a Hypersport tire, especially if you don't have tire warmers.
 

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"The Dude abides .. "
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MELKMAN.....thanks for the input. Based on your videos and such that I have seen, you seem to know your stuff.

Looks like I'm gonna stick with the stock gearing. Corner entry and corner speed is where i'm gonna pick up time at this point in my track riding career, so i guess you are probably right about not gaining much out of my point and shoot drives......which i already do pretty well ( my mid corner to corner exit drives out ).

One more question though, i have been looking into the Dunlop 211's and see they only come in 190's. When squeezed onto the R6 wheel it becomes a taller tire. I have heard of some guys going +1 just to compensate for the larger diameter tire.

From a gearing standpoint on cars ( and I assume the same goes for bikes ), its harder to get a 20" wheel rolling vs say a 18" wheel ( using the same drive train on both wheels ). Does that make sense to you? the 190 will be taller than the 180 when squeezed on the R6 wheel and will have a slightly tougher time accelerating.


i may just go with power ones / cups and do the 180 /120 anyhow......just curious on your thoughts as well. I like dunlop, but have always been a michelin fan, even when i worked in a auto tire shop as a teenager.
as Turbo said, a 15t up front will give more acceleration, and YOU WILL NEED ONE at some point if you are planning to do various tracks (sounds like you will be). Stock is "ideal" if you had to pick ONE final drive ratio, that said, there will always be a change needed from time to time.. i don't know how it's saving him a downshift, but whatever. Sometimes you need a 16, sometimes you need a 15t, but just slapping a -1/+2 gearing on cause all the street dudes do it (and track guys that have NO idea how to gear a 3rd gen bike) is not a good way to start this deal.

Which brings me to the next segment. The tire choice. STAY AWAY from the dunlop gpa ama spec tire. I mean do not spend your money on those.. if you had to get dunlop get the uk ntec but they are $550 a set. OR yea, go with the Michelin tires. I SUGGEST ya go ahead and start using the 190/55 michlein rear, be it the power One or Power Cup if you are seriously doing track days and have the budget for race rubber (and have warmers). the 190/55 gives more side grip and drive grip, it is MADE for the 5.5" rear wheel too. I suggest the 190/55 if you buy the CUP rear, the powerOne is considerably heavier, and if you can get deals on the PowerOne (don't pay the same price for power 1 as you do cup, cup is the NEW tire) use the 180.. the power One rears are much heavier than the powerOne tires. OUr new 190 power cup is lighter than the 180 power one.. And THREE POUNDS lighter than the power One 190. As mercenary states, unless you are gonna get serious about track days, full race rubber may not be the best choice (but stay the f uck away from the ama spec gpa tire, run the uk tire, pirelli, or Michelin cup/power1 if you want race rubber).

190 GEARING. You have to adjust gearing for the 190. Yes, as you state a larger/taller tire is just like going smaller on a rear sprocket. You will need to add one tooth to the rear to keep your gearing about the same as your 180 tire.. so now you are that much closer to just putting on a 15t front and leaving stock rear .. LOL.. I would get a 15/16/17 front, and as many rears as you can afford starting with 44, 45 (stock), 46, 47. One thing you need to keep in mind about gearing.. is this is often how you have to adjust your axle position. If you are running 16/47 but your axle is way far forward, you can run 15/44 and now the axle is way back. You may wonder why that would matter, but as your pace picks up and you learn about getting the suspension/geometry where it works and wont work you will see :)
 

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but just slapping a -1/+2 gearing on cause all the street dudes do it (and track guys that have NO idea how to gear a 3rd gen bike) is not a good way to start this deal.
Care to elaborate the part in brackets? This season I'm on a 3rd gen for the first time and was actually just about to add a +2 to the rear. I'm already - 1 front. My streetbike is an R1, so all my trial and error on the new 6 is on the track. My gearing is just a bit tall for the track I typically run on. You meaning I should gear right down and use 3rd gear, where now I would use 2nd?



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i'm not sure if anyone has mention it but if you change the gears, remember that your speedometer will be off. therefore you will need to get a speedo healer to correct that problem.
 

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i'm not sure if anyone has mention it but if you change the gears, remember that your speedometer will be off. therefore you will need to get a speedo healer to correct that problem.
maybe some do, but most (myself included) have almost never.. ever.. looked at the speedo when on track. I get asked that question from time to time, "how fast are you on the back straight" .. and i have to stop and think for a second as i honestly have never ever .. ever.. looked at my speedo on track. I do occasionally glance at the tach to see if my feeling on shift points is accurate or not, but i rarely even look at that.
 

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"The Dude abides .. "
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Care to elaborate the part in brackets? This season I'm on a 3rd gen for the first time and was actually just about to add a +2 to the rear. I'm already - 1 front. My streetbike is an R1, so all my trial and error on the new 6 is on the track. My gearing is just a bit tall for the track I typically run on. You meaning I should gear right down and use 3rd gear, where now I would use 2nd?



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you should gear a bike for good acceleration out of most corners. It will never be perfect. And do not bother with the incorrect addage of "You have to gear your bike to be in the top of 6th on the longest straight".. that's not really correct either. Of the 6 tracks i run here in the SouthEast region, 3 of em we only use 5th gear. And at Barber (7th track) you only use 2nd to 4th! :)

I'm not sure i follow your question, but if you simply add a big rear, and a small front, yes, you will likely just be making yourself need to run 3rd gear to 6th, instead of 2nd to 5th.. and if you do need 6th for a long straigh, may not have enough rpm left before you run out and hit the limiter.. and you may find you are inbetween gears at some corners.

there is no question some gearing changes will help a rider, but straying way off stock is not going to help you turn faster laps.
 
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