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Discussion Starter #1
What would you do, in this hypothetical situation...


So you've been tracking your bike a few years now, consider yourself 'fast' and have been riding consistently in the expert group at track days for atleast a year...

1 track day, in the expert/advanced group, all is going well, about 3 laps into the session, and there is a slower rider in front of you, sort of on inside of the track, that looks behind him as you come up to pass, makes an abrupt move, and you collide. You end up in the hospital and the fun ends.

You then receive word from the track day organization, basically stating that the rider you were involved in a collision with, was a lower level rider that had 'accidentally' been let out onto the track, in expert group, along with two other riders. The org continues by stating this wouldn't have happened if they had been stopped at pit in, where there is a track marshall checking bikes so incorrect groups do not go out...
They continue with stating that the riders were seen after first lap and black flagged (meaning they had a flag pointed at them a specific color telling the rider they have a problem and need to pull off the track next time around and see the track marshall), but the riders in question tell you they saw no black flag... as well as others on the track, and you yourself never saw one either...


What would be your next course of action?
 

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My answer is one you won't like (hypothetically speaking, of course).

In my opinion, as taught to me at school, it is the over taking rider's responsibility to ensure the pass can be done safely. Therefore any incident during the pass is the over taking rider's responsibility.

As far as next course of action? I don't know. Maybe an attorney?
 

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My answer is one you won't like (hypothetically speaking, of course).

In my opinion, as taught to me at school, it is the over taking rider's responsibility to ensure the pass can be done safely. Therefore any incident during the pass is the over taking rider's responsibility.

As far as next course of action? I don't know. Maybe an attorney?
I think hypothetically in that situation, it might have been too late to react because it was a fast corner prior to that straight.
 

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**** dude, that sucks.

I would be pretty pissed that the TD Org allowed a lapse in their standard operating procedure that resulted in my injury and loss of property. One could even say they were negligent.

I don't know what I would do next...it depends.
Will you be placed in financial hardship due to your injuries?
Was the other guy hurt?
What is my opinion of the td org? What is their safety record? Do I think they are good, safe guys who had one slip up? Do I want to forgive them and still ride with them in the future?
Or do I think they are a bunch of jackasses who just screwed up again? Do I want to burn that bridge and seek financial compensation and damage their reputation?

You have to of course understand that each and every time you go out on track there is a chance your bike will be destroyed and you will be injured. That's why we like to say 'don't take anything out on track you can't afford to toss away' and that's why they make you sign a waiver. And like Dan said, it's the overtaking riders responsibility to do so safely. However in this case it's possible the td org's negligence was responsible for your misfortune, in which case it's something different entirely.

Only you can answer these questions and decide what you want to do next.
 

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I would agree with an above statement: the rider in front always has the right of way, it's up to you to ensure that path is safe. Unfortunately it is a shitty situation, but unless the track day organization and track itself has a legal withholding stating liability is the fault of a rider or vehicle who has disobeyed an official order, i.e. black flag, which means they cause a certain safety hazard to others on the track, then I don't think there is much you can do. If you have video of the event happening then it's really only a small claims court matter, granted you can prove he saw you and is at fault for the collision because he was in a level outside his skills. Otherwise, it's the track, shit happens and you have to put up with it, sadly.

Happened with a buddy of mine this past season, rider hit him from the outside of a corner going in to an apex and they both had totaled bikes. The other rider claimed he took a different line and speed but as I said then, it is the rider behind who bares the responsibility to ensure a safe pass. I don't think there is much this theoretical person can do.

I don't think you can do anything in terms of legal action against the track or track day organization either since you usually sign a waiver claiming you are responsible for any monetary and bodily damages that happen.
 

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I don't think you can do anything in terms of legal action against the track or track day organization either since you usually sign a waiver claiming you are responsible for any monetary and bodily damages that happen.
I think we should probably let his lawyer figure that out, if that's the path OP chooses.

Or, unless... are you an expert on Polish tort law?
 

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I'd talk to the track day organization and see if they'll pay for a replacement bike or hospital bills, or whatever I want paid for. I'd try to be reasonable and just assess how much they are willing to own up to their mistake. If they don't cooperate...

I'd take their letter to an attorney, along with a copy of the liability waiver, and see if I had a case.

I don't think you should feel bad about suing them to get your bike replaced or hospital bills covered (really, you're suing for money, but it's to pay for those things). Companies have insurance to cover accidents. Yeah, their rates might go up and they might charge more for track days, but do you do so many track days with them that paying a lower track day fee is cheaper than another motorcycle?
 

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I'd talk to the track day organization and see if they'll pay for a replacement bike or hospital bills, or whatever I want paid for. I'd try to be reasonable and just assess how much they are willing to own up to their mistake. If they don't cooperate...

I'd take their letter to an attorney, along with a copy of the liability waiver, and see if I had a case.

I don't think you should feel bad about suing them to get your bike replaced or hospital bills covered (really, you're suing for money, but it's to pay for those things). Companies have insurance to cover accidents. Yeah, their rates might go up and they might charge more for track days, but do you do so many track days with them that paying a lower track day fee is cheaper than another motorcycle?
Or, everyone just fixes their shit and moves on with life.

I can't believe anyone even brought up "lawyer" in this thread. They are the exact reason why everyone is so quick to sue. All out for a quick buck.

Shit happens at the track, either at a track day or racing. If you aren't willing to take your bike home in a wadded mess, you shouldn't be out there. Period.

You shouldn't feel bad for suing them? Seriously?

IF YOU DON'T HAVE ADEQUATE HEALTH INSURANCE, YOU SHOULDN'T BE ON THE TRACK. PERIOD.

Who in the hell would you sue if you crashed from a low side? Your tire manufacturer because they didn't grip enough? The track day org? The track itself? When are people like you going to accept responsibility for your own actions? Your riding a high performance motorcycle at a high rate of speed. You haven't planned for anything?
 

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IF YOU DON'T HAVE ADEQUATE HEALTH INSURANCE, YOU SHOULDN'T BE ON THE TRACK. PERIOD.
The OP never said this.

In my post I asked if his hospital stay was going to create a financial hardship. I kind of forgot that, duh, if he was riding on the track that should not be the case because he should have had health insurance to cover the expense. (What's the health care situation like in Poland? I have no idea.)

Yes, shit happens on the racetrack. People run into each and crash sometimes. And like you said you need to be ready to accept the consequences regardless of fault. Talk of lawyers would be ridiculous if he had just low sided on his own.

But in this case, and I think this is the entire point of OP making this thread, there is the possibility of gross negligence by the track day organizer that lead to this accident. Obviously we don't have all details here, far from it, we just have the general story that OP gave us. I don't think it's wrong to pursue compensation if you feel the gross negligence of another has caused your loss.
 

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I can't believe anyone even brought up "lawyer" in this thread. They are the exact reason why everyone is so quick to sue. All out for a quick buck.
The only reason I brought "lawyer" up in this conversation was as a sanity check to the original poster. Because if he's looking for recourse of some sort in that regard, he needs to look at this situation from all angles. You know as a NESBA A group rider that the responsibility lies with the overtaking rider, in the rules we play along with, as often as it is stated and re-stated, NESBAs lawyers (plural) would be prepared to capitalize on that. So one would be hard pressed to find fault with them, when ultimately it is the passing rider's responsibility to ensure it can be done safely with some degree of respect (everyone trades paint, but if the passed rider complains, once again it falls on the passing rider).

Please don't try to interpret what I said otherwise, and if I posted with ambiguity requiring clarity, for that I apologize. So lets focus on the OPs situation and concern. Thank you.
 

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Or, everyone just fixes their shit and moves on with life.

I can't believe anyone even brought up "lawyer" in this thread. They are the exact reason why everyone is so quick to sue. All out for a quick buck.

Shit happens at the track, either at a track day or racing. If you aren't willing to take your bike home in a wadded mess, you shouldn't be out there. Period.

You shouldn't feel bad for suing them? Seriously?

IF YOU DON'T HAVE ADEQUATE HEALTH INSURANCE, YOU SHOULDN'T BE ON THE TRACK. PERIOD.

Who in the hell would you sue if you crashed from a low side? Your tire manufacturer because they didn't grip enough? The track day org? The track itself? When are people like you going to accept responsibility for your own actions? Your riding a high performance motorcycle at a high rate of speed. You haven't planned for anything?
Blah blah blah.... until you're involved in an accident and then you'll be singing a different tune... sorry I call BS

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Discussion Starter #13
My answer is one you won't like (hypothetically speaking, of course).

In my opinion, as taught to me at school, it is the over taking rider's responsibility to ensure the pass can be done safely. Therefore any incident during the pass is the over taking rider's responsibility.

As far as next course of action? I don't know. Maybe an attorney?
completely agree with this, i would not even CONSIDER going after anything from a trackday wreck... i know its dangerous and i choose to do it anyway.
in this situation, hypothetically, you would be approched BY the TD org, with you saying nothing, and them literally saying 'this would not have happened had we done our job correctly'

**** dude, that sucks.

I would be pretty pissed that the TD Org allowed a lapse in their standard operating procedure that resulted in my injury and loss of property. One could even say they were negligent.

I don't know what I would do next...it depends.
Will you be placed in financial hardship due to your injuries?
Was the other guy hurt?
What is my opinion of the td org? What is their safety record? Do I think they are good, safe guys who had one slip up? Do I want to forgive them and still ride with them in the future?
Or do I think they are a bunch of jackasses who just screwed up again? Do I want to burn that bridge and seek financial compensation and damage their reputation?

You have to of course understand that each and every time you go out on track there is a chance your bike will be destroyed and you will be injured. That's why we like to say 'don't take anything out on track you can't afford to toss away' and that's why they make you sign a waiver. And like Dan said, it's the overtaking riders responsibility to do so safely. However in this case it's possible the td org's negligence was responsible for your misfortune, in which case it's something different entirely.

Only you can answer these questions and decide what you want to do next.
in this case you have no health insurance at the time of the incident, and yes you will be in a great financial hardship.
included will be damages to your body that will never be the same, although you are not paralyzed or disabled.

the other rider didnt get so much as a scratch.

the org is fairly new

you arent looking for a 'free buck' just feel that if the company approached you stating they feel this was their negligence, you would of course prefer to have atleast the medical bills taken care of or split in some way shape or form.

I would agree with an above statement: the rider in front always has the right of way, it's up to you to ensure that path is safe. Unfortunately it is a shitty situation, but unless the track day organization and track itself has a legal withholding stating liability is the fault of a rider or vehicle who has disobeyed an official order, i.e. black flag, which means they cause a certain safety hazard to others on the track, then I don't think there is much you can do. If you have video of the event happening then it's really only a small claims court matter, granted you can prove he saw you and is at fault for the collision because he was in a level outside his skills. Otherwise, it's the track, shit happens and you have to put up with it, sadly.

Happened with a buddy of mine this past season, rider hit him from the outside of a corner going in to an apex and they both had totaled bikes. The other rider claimed he took a different line and speed but as I said then, it is the rider behind who bares the responsibility to ensure a safe pass. I don't think there is much this theoretical person can do.

I don't think you can do anything in terms of legal action against the track or track day organization either since you usually sign a waiver claiming you are responsible for any monetary and bodily damages that happen.
in this case the org was VERY NEW, no waiver was signed except the one at the gate for the TRACK itself, NOT the organization.
the org's website apparently has a 'legal' section, but you did not register online, you registered at the track day, and signed NO WAIVER other then the TRACK waiver.
Or, everyone just fixes their shit and moves on with life.

I can't believe anyone even brought up "lawyer" in this thread. They are the exact reason why everyone is so quick to sue. All out for a quick buck.

Shit happens at the track, either at a track day or racing. If you aren't willing to take your bike home in a wadded mess, you shouldn't be out there. Period.

You shouldn't feel bad for suing them? Seriously?

IF YOU DON'T HAVE ADEQUATE HEALTH INSURANCE, YOU SHOULDN'T BE ON THE TRACK. PERIOD.

Who in the hell would you sue if you crashed from a low side? Your tire manufacturer because they didn't grip enough? The track day org? The track itself? When are people like you going to accept responsibility for your own actions? Your riding a high performance motorcycle at a high rate of speed. You haven't planned for anything?
yes you made a dumb choice going out with no health insurance for what ever reason.

you were prepared to pay for any damages, and this is not your first rodeo, you have been down before, more then you would like to have, and never once has a thought to try to get compensated crossed your mind.

Its legitimately not for a 'quick buck' , suing is the last thing you want to do, but you really feel in this situation you would just eat the cost and damages, even though you pay a hefty amount for the track time in a safe, organized environment.
You have a choice for OPEN track time for cheap, or you can pay extra for a TRACK DAY ORGANZation that is supposed to provide a safe environment.
keep in mind you didnt even think about blaming anyone, but you were approached by the org, claiming they are sorry and this would not have happened had they done their job.
?



btw this would happen in america lay off the polish

Sherman, you da man
 

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Wait a minute. This is actually a hypothetical situation you dreamed up for us to discuss?

I assumed you were just using that as a figure of speech because this really happened to you and you wanted to know what we would do in your place.

There are way too many variables and unique considerations to know what I would actually do. I'm not interested in this thread anymore.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Wait a minute. This is actually a hypothetical situation you dreamed up for us to discuss?

I assumed you were just using that as a figure of speech because this really happened to you and you wanted to know what we would do in your place.

There are way too many variables and unique considerations to know what I would actually do. I'm not interested in this thread anymore.
damn you numb.
 

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Blah blah blah.... until you're involved in an accident and then you'll be singing a different tune... sorry I call BS

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Been there, done that, so anytime you want to go ahead and drink a tall glass of STFU...

Shit happens, and in this scenario, there are far too many fingers to point at different people.

- The passing rider is at fault as it's always the passer's responsibility to make a clean pass

- The grid marshal is at fault for not checking the bike prior to heading out on track

- The corner workers are at fault because they did not red flag the session after the rider(s) ignored the black flag. Having worked as a corner worker, that's something I would have done in a heart beat when the rider went more than 3 or 4 turns without taking his bike off track.

- The moron who went out on track at the wrong time is at fault for going out on the wrong session to begin with

Far too much blame to pass around, even if it WAS any kind of legitimate case to sue for.
 

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Been there, done that, so anytime you want to go ahead and drink a tall glass of STFU...

Shit happens, and in this scenario, there are far too many fingers to point at different people.

- The passing rider is at fault as it's always the passer's responsibility to make a clean pass

- The grid marshal is at fault for not checking the bike prior to heading out on track

- The corner workers are at fault because they did not red flag the session after the rider(s) ignored the black flag. Having worked as a corner worker, that's something I would have done in a heart beat when the rider went more than 3 or 4 turns without taking his bike off track.

- The moron who went out on track at the wrong time is at fault for going out on the wrong session to begin with

Far too much blame to pass around, even if it WAS any kind of legitimate case to sue for.
the bold was my first thought, and wish he took responsibility for his actions.
 

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Its legitimately not for a 'quick buck' , suing is the last thing you want to do, but you really feel in this situation you would just eat the cost and damages, even though you pay a hefty amount for the track time in a safe, organized environment.
So who is going to pay the track day org the money back after you get done suing them?

Hint: It's you. And the other riders.

All they are going to do is jack up the rates, if they manage to not go under from the case.
 
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